next »

[Yue Fei]

Fa Zheng likely would've replaced him until he died. The thing is, if there's no Zhuge in Shu does that mean no Pang Tong either? And if Pang Tong is with Liu Bei, does that mean he'll still die inspecting the siege of Luo Castle.

Even a minor change in things, can affect something further down the line. Perhaps we might see a very successful Pang Tong lead the Han Zhong campaign.

[He Xing]

Even a minor change in things, can affect something further down the line. Perhaps we might see a very successful Pang Tong lead the Han Zhong campaign.

What would that mean for Shu?

[El Jefe]

Well, judging by his assessment of the invasion of Shu, were he to live long enough, he might be able to recommend a bolder plan to push north and keep Wei on its toes. Depends on who ends up with assumed military command, if it's Fei Yi like Yue Fei mentioned that might actually make a fantastic combo; then again, it might yield the same results as what happened in the beginning with Jiang Wei and Fei Yi.

[He Xing]

Well, judging by his assessment of the invasion of Shu, were he to live long enough, he might be able to recommend a bolder plan to push north and keep Wei on its toes. Depends on who ends up with assumed military command, if it's Fei Yi like Yue Fei mentioned that might actually make a fantastic combo; then again, it might yield the same results as what happened in the beginning with Jiang Wei and Fei Yi.

How would it make a fantastic combo?

and what happened between Fei Yi and Jiang Wei?

[GuanXing-Shu]

I leave the first part of the question to be answered by someone else.


But what happened with Jiang Wei and Fei Yi...

Fei Yi wasn't very into large military campaigns, he allowed for Jiang Wei to attack Wei in small scale battles to harass and disrupt Wei's flow, but that was about it.

Jiang Wei wanted a larger scale assault (much like his future northern campaigns), Fei Yi wouldn't comply.

There is actually a rumor that Fei Yi was killed off by Jiang Wei, since the man that killed Fei Yi (I think his name is Guo Xun or Xuan) might have been working for Jiang Wei, who had a group of assassins working for him. This hasn't ever been proven, but the fact that a rumor like this floats around might indicate that their relationship wasn't that good.

[El Jefe]

How would it make a fantastic combo?

And if Fei Yi's habit of only allowing smaller campaigns was designed with a brilliant plan from Pang Tong, it might have formulated successful raids that could've led to an eventual acquisition of Liang territory. Zhuge had access to the military but relied on conventional tactics that the Wei generals were able to see through and had the ability to counter. Pang Tong, however, as suggested by his proposal of three methods for subjugating Yizhou, might have come up with more unconventional ideas.

But who knows if they even would've focused on the north? Zhuge Liang strongly supported the alliance with Wu, so Fei Yi and Pang Tong may have placed priority on Jing once more, opting instead for a defensive posture against the north.

[Humble Hero]

Indeed, Zhuge's greatest military calling seemed to be in organized retreats (a talent he acquired over several campaigns), where as Pang Tong seems a more adept military strategist on the offensive, not to mention he actually starts off with this skill when the three kingdoms establish, as opposed to Zhuge who basically had to train during the war.

A thought only occurs just now, as well. Combining that Pang Tong did not seem to have issue with underhanded tactics, considered whatever risky opportunities were on offer, and wasn't so obsessed with an alliance with Wu, we might end up with a Shu that betrays Wu (in open conflict) and never loses Jing in the first place.

That is of course, provided everything still manages to go on according to plan without Zhuge, and Pang Tong still offers his service in to Shu.

As has been mentioned before though, Pang Tongs tactics show either brilliance and understanding of opportunities, or a lack of brilliance and understanding of risks (specifically, his suggestion to capture Liu Zhang). However, we face a similar issue as with Guo Jia, in that his service life is rather short, so there isn't a whole lot of judgment that can be made from his career.

[He Xing]

A thought only occurs just now, as well. Combining that Pang Tong did not seem to have issue with underhanded tactics, considered whatever risky opportunities were on offer, and wasn't so obsessed with an alliance with Wu, we might end up with a Shu that betrays Wu (in open conflict) and never loses Jing in the first place.

What would they have to gain by betraying Wu?

And I hope i'm not asking to many questions 

[El Jefe]

Without Jing, Wu was small. Take it over and Shu has two highly defendable points to expand from. Liu Bei was never immensely loyal to the alliance to begin with, he outmaneuvered Zhou Yu to gain unmitigated access to Yizhou and basically ignored Wu until the death of Guan Yu.

[Humble Hero]

No worries, it's a what if thread, if there's one place for questions this is it.

Indeed, by acquiring Wu, Liu Bei secures more defendable land for resources and potentially some more talent. One of the greatest issues for late Shu was that all their talent seemed to be in the old guard. Compared to the quantity and quality of officers possessed by post Yi Ling Wu and Wei/Jin, Shu really had no hope.

Even if Shu had just held on to Jing instead of fighting Wei, the outcome would probably be different.

[He Xing]

I see, thank you.

Ok what if after Zhang Xiu was defeated by Cao Cao, and instead of serving Wei Jia Xu had lingered around Jing for a while, until he eventually began to serve Liu Bei when he entered Xin Ye.

I don't know if he would live long enough to make any difference however.

[Humble Hero]

I'm not sure Jia Xus absence would be felt heavily through Wei, but again, it would be a crucial gain for Shu. Arguably the greatest military strategist in the land, Jia Xu could easily give Shu the upper hand in that he seemed to have quite intimate knowledge of how Cao Cao thought and behaved. If nothing else, it would ease the burden of fighting off against the North.

If he joins before the conquest of Yi, who knows. Maybe he'll operate in conjunction with Pang Tong and establish a fourth strategy that hastens the establishing of Shu (and as a consequence, would also save Pang Tongs life, giving all the previous bonuses stated)

[Humble Hero]

What if Dong Zhuo was politically minded and conducted himself more... civilly towards the other lords. Would the coalition still form and if it did, would so many join?

Also, what if he and Lu Bu always maintained a positive relationship (no maid seducing, no axe throwing). Would the conspirators still be able to go on with their plan if he was guarded by Lu Bu?

[El Jefe]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it wouldn't have mattered. The wheels had already been set in motion and I don't think the regional lords as a whole would've accepted centralized power meddling in their affairs. If nothing else, key players may have trumped up some charges against Dong Zhuo to villify him.

Hell, that may have been done anyway. Dong Zhuo could've been as saintly as Liu Yu and as brave as Zhao Yun, heralded across the land by the people. Emperor Shao could've died of chicken pox. Obviously I'm stretching, but hey, you never know.

If Dong Zhuo and Lu Bu had remained on good terms, I'm sure someone could've pulled off the assassination (Li Su was in on the plot) but I think Lu Bu may have at least temporarily signed on with Li Jue and Guo Si instead of Wang Yun. Doubt it would've had much impact in the long run.

[King of Ba Shu]

What if Lu Bu had become loyal to Liu Bei when they were in Xu Province. This goes for all of Lu Bu's men as well: Zhang Liao, Gao Shun, and Chen Gong. Keep in mind that Ji Ling and Liu Bei still have their "peace talk" and a loose alliance is formed with Yuan Shu.

To chime in a little but on my own question:
Liu Bei and Yuan Shu would most likely not remain in a close alliance for long due to their nature to become the power behind the throne or declare themselves the Emperor.