next »

[scholar]

Wei was involved in Yiling, at least indirectly. Huang Quan was leading the second half of the army in the battle. When Liu Bei lost he was cut off from Shu. Unwilling to surrender to Wu, he went to Wei instead. While he served Wei he never once went to war with Shu, but he was very highly respected and praised by some rather famous people.

[ZhangChengGong]

Here goes another one (I don't know if this has been posted too, so sorry for the inconvenience):

What if Meng Da, Shen Dan and the others had never surrendered to Wei? And another one: what if Jiang Wei had never surrendered to Shu?

[scholar]

Meng Da would probably have been killed.

Shu may have been better off, but its impossible to tell. Someone incompetent may have taken his place.

[Humble Hero]

What if Jiang Wei managed to soak up Zhuge Liangs civil genius, and had the will, the time and the inclination to stand as the commander as well as perform his civil duties?

[scholar]

Then Shu would last longer, at least until the end of Jiang's death. Though something would probably happen with Wei, should Wu still crumble then after Wu falls Shu will fall too.

[Gongsun Zan]

This seems to have turned into the "pose a question for scholar" thread

[scholar]

This seems to have turned into the "pose a question for scholar" thread

All you need to do is look at the previous page to see that it really isn't, but in any case I'm always willing to give an answer to a question or apply my own opinion to a particular scenario.

[Humble Hero]

Okay. Now. What if for whatever reason, Sun Quan handed over the reigns of Wu - officers and all - to Liu Bei just after Bei seized Jing? (let's say he hit his head *really* hard) Would Liu, after taking Yi and having all that extra talent to utilize, possibly stand a chance against Wei?

and while we're at it, what if Liu Bei gave Sun Quan the same control of Shu just after he gained control in Yi?

I guess what I'm asking is if, given an equal kingdom, either man could stand against Cao Cao, and what he established.

[Yue Fei]

Okay. Now. What if for whatever reason, Sun Quan handed over the reigns of Wu - officers and all - to Liu Bei just after Bei seized Jing? (let's say he hit his head *really* hard) Would Liu, after taking Yi and having all that extra talent to utilize, possibly stand a chance against Wei?

and while we're at it, what if Liu Bei gave Sun Quan the same control of Shu just after he gained control in Yi?

I guess what I'm asking is if, given an equal kingdom, either man could stand against Cao Cao, and what he established.

Likely they'd have more of a chance against Cao Cao, at least if all fronts were utilized properly. The problem though, is that until the Ming, a southern Dynasty was incapable of taking over a Northern one, primarily because of the issue of the central plains and lack of cavalry.

If Liu Bei had control of Yang, or Sun Quan had control of Yi, plus the talent that came with each, their best chance would be during Han Zhong.

Cao Cao suffered a fairly big blow there, and if Jing and He Fei were also marched on at a similar time, it would've worked extremely well for whoever was in command.

Imagine if the northern push on Jing was commanded by Lu Meng...

[He Xing]

What if Liu Bei had managed to survive his sickness after his defeat at Yi Ling, and made a complete recovery.

Saying he lived to maybe 73-75.

That's pushing the envelope on the average lifespan of the period I believe.

Though suppose he ate very well and worked out, lifting weights with Zhao Yun and Wei Yan in the local gym.

(Bad humor is bad)

[Humble Hero]

Then Shu would last a little bit longer, but still ultimately fall. Also...

Liu Bei is a man, and by that I can imagine he would almost never give Wu the benefit of even diplomatic talks ever again. In fact, Bei may even attempt to align himself with Wei so that he can focus on Wu. Now, even though there was no sworn brotherhood, Guan Yu and Liu Bei had been together some 30-ish years when Guan was killed. They had been struggling and fighting and running and seeking the same goal for so long, the bond between them would have been unbreakable. Try and imagine what that would be like... He would never forgive Wu. Especially considering it was a back stab, and not just a casualty of war.

So my thoughts would be he would gather strength and either attack Wu again, or simply develop internal policy rather then worry about the rest of China.

[King of Ba Shu]

I'm sure someone has asked this before, but I am going to ask these anyway.

1. If Liu Bei had never been born?

2. If Cao Cao had never been born?

How radically different would life have been in the time frame of the Three Kingdom Dynasty? Lets start there and then possibly go into the "after effects" of one or the other not having ever been alive.

[scholar]

In either case it would effectively make everyone unpredictable. In the case of Liu Bei, and for now we'll just ignore butterflies, suddenly disappearing we have a general that doesn't move around all over China effecting the outcome of battles. Gongsun Zan may fall quicker because the southern portion of his empire under Tian Kai may fall quicker. "Yellow Turbans" may get a revival inside Qing leading to Yuan Shao putting them down. Continuing with this Yuan Shu may last a lot longer and Lu Bu may fall a lot faster or succeed a lot faster depending on how well Cao Cao's campaign would go against Tao Qian. Later on at in Jing, Liu Zong may never surrender forcing an actual fight over Jing. Or Liu Qi may just succeed which has its own special implications. Should Jing be overrun, Cao Cao would not be eager to go against Sun Quan due to a lot of resources being spent on this, which means the next attack could be a decade further down the road. Without Liu Bei and his merry gang of officers and additional troops going against Sun Quan may result in a multi-pronged attack, something he may not be able to overcome. Liu Zhang will surrender. Zhang Lu will eventually be gotten rid of. Shi Xie surrenders. Ma Chao won't revolt in this case. China's united under Cao Cao, though it won't be as centralized as many surrendered warlords will remain in power such as Ma Chao, Liu Zhang, Shi Xie, and Gongsun Kang. This may not bode well for Cao Cao's descendants in the future should Wei have a calamity fall on him.

With Cao Cao not being born most significantly is the drive to get rid of Dong Zhou suffering. Dong Zhou may still retreat. Liu Dai's territory may end up going to Zhang Miao. Zhang Miao may be much less willing to get receive Lu Bu. Yuan Shu readily becomes a true power in the region as there's a lack of substantial forces to resist him well enough. Liu Bei may not get very far, possibly endearing himself as a good general to one of the smaller warlords. He'll probably surrender to Yuan Shao when Gongsun Zan goes mad. The fate of China will most likely be decided in a Three Kingdoms of a different sort. Dong and successors in the northwest, Yuan Shao in the north, and Yuan Shu in the south. Liu Biao and Liu Zhang probably won't be too important in this being imperial relatives they won't be overtly moved against. The Emperor may actually decide to set up shop with someone more loyal and less oppressive than Cao Cao.

In either situation famous generals that are easily recognizable to the ear end up becoming far more obscure, having their deeds radically altered, or have them just appear as minor bandits and warlords. Guo Jia may be a good for nothing sycophant in Zhang Miao's court. Xiahou Dun may be a petty bandit lord. Zhang Fei may remain a butcher. Zhao Yun may never leave Gongsun Zan's service and will never become a premiere general of the Han.

List goes on.

[He Xing]

What if Zhuge Liang had not been recruited by Liu Bei (aka failed during his three tries)

and to add on to that

what if Zhuge Liang had gone to serve Cao Cao as he passed through Jing while chasing Liu Bei.

Also what if Zhuge Liang had joined Sun Quan around 208 (after Chang Ban, before Chi Bi).

[El Jefe]

It's a fairly common question and the answers I've commonly seen and espoused don't go too well for Zhuge Liang. In either Wu or Wei, he simply would not have had the clout to climb as high up the ladder as he did in Shu. So in my opinion, he would've been like yet another Liu Ye at best, respected enough but hardly the lynchpin of the kingdom, listened to on some occasions and ignored on others. The only way he would've attained any real success is if he were involved in a battle and pulled off one of his infamous ambushes and killed somebody renowned. Otherwise, ho-hum civil duty is all I see in his future.

Shu, meanwhile, probably wouldn't have been supremely crippled but would've found things slow initially after entering Shu. The big question is who would've replaced Zhuge Liang as regent, I think Jiang Wan and Fei Yi were still a bit young and unproven, the old old guard was all pretty much gone, not sure who stood out at the time. Yang Yi? *cringe*