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[yellow turban]

i am sure on 5/5 at both Cheng Pu and Zhu Ran.I hate killing them as npc so making them playable would be funnier .....
Pan Zhang = Dong Zhuo in short .............4/5

[Ma Su]

Did Cao Cao appear in folklore, history, or novel while Pi was Emperor?

No

why should koei overpower/weaken one of it's characters due to the novel? It would be a bit like Zhuge Liang being the only one capable of doing magic without being a bonfide mystic. Or all of Shu's characters being saints (wait a minute... )

[Rivus]

Well Ma Su it doesn't seem like there is any point to debating this because we are argueing our opinions and I don't think we are going to change each others. The way I see it is if the character has an interesting personality, fun to play as and has numerous interesting events he will have a fan base.

You see it as unfair and in favor of Guan Yu and out of favor for any other character.

[Ma Su]

The way I see it is if the character has an interesting personality, fun to play as and has numerous interesting events he will have a fan base.

Are you referring to Guan Yu or Pan Zhang here or both?

[scholar]

No

why should koei overpower/weaken one of it's characters due to the novel? It would be a bit like Zhuge Liang being the only one capable of doing magic without being a bonfide mystic. Or all of Shu's characters being saints (wait a minute... )

You're right! Let's how Cao Cao be a French Marshal in the french revolution fighting off against Huang Gai the Italian Prince. If it's not based loosely on history and it's novel then it just doesn't work. If we were arguing about the placement of something something silly like that then there's no point. But the blinding of Pan Zheng was a major event in both his story and that of Guan Xing which I bet people will give a 3-5 on.

[Ma Su]

why can't we cut out parts of the novel which affects the balance of the game. DW doesn't have to follow the Shu bias of the novel, if that means taking out or tailoring events then fine with me

Yeah, it is the bit were Pan Zhang gets killed in the novel, I would rather he be used for Nanjun rather then die at Yi Ling in his musou. Being scared by a Shu ploy involving him thinking Guan Yu has returned alive would be good as I said. For Guan Xing, the revenge angle (and if your playing as Xing, no complaint in getting a revenge kill on Zhang somewhere in musou mode) is the main part of him, he doesn't need the ghostly aid for that

[scholar]

Maybe Guan Yu's disembodied voice at scenes throughout the stage for both Pan Zheng and Guan Xing, and after Wu beats the round the final cutscene will be Guan Xing riding a horse with a sword in his hand riding directly at him. And it goes black.

[Rivus]

I'll make a gif for how it would look from Xing's musou and pan zhangs musou to show what i'm thinking, although it will look terrible, consider it a "concept art"

[Nick]

this is the most discussion a single character has gotten so far.  Interesting.

Tomorrow I will try to 1) Add 5 more generals 2) Mark the totals for the last few rankings, and 3) try to start updating the 1st page with links to the discussions to them.  If anyone wants to help with that third one, feel free.

[Ma Su]

Do you want to keep links to ye olden posts or just the new ones?

[Nick]

keep the old ones.  Just mark them as 2008 Rankings, and the new ones as 2009 Rankings.  Maybe we can make this an annual event or something.

Post 234 Wei:

Chen Tai: Chen Tai was very nearly are second perfect score, but because of one voter giving him less than a 5, he comes in at an extremely impressive 4.8

Guo Huai: I would have assumed his being a bridge between the pre and post 234 era would earn him a higher ranking, but it seems he just doesn't stand out enough.  However, he still managed to pull off a 3.9, which is very impressive considering how little he is displayed in the novel.

Deng Ai: As if there was any doubt, Deng Ai becomes our second perfect score. 5

Zhuge Dan: It seems that people have very mixed opinions of him.  Despite his being somewhat of a one hit wonder, many people still view him as important to the period simply due to his rebellion.  He earned a 3.7.

Zhong Hui: with only a 1.8, it seems that his help invading the lands of Shu and his rebellion are not enough to give him support amongst the players.  I know my ranking didn't help him at all, but frankly, I'm surprised by how low he is.

Wei Emperors:

Cao Rui: Pushing Cao Pi from the limelight and acting as a bridge between the pre and post 234 era, Cao Rui gets a solid 3.4

Cao Fang: Somehow, the figurehead ruler Cao Fang managed to get 1.8 points worth of support.  I can only express puzzlement that boarders on alarm.

Cao Mao: and that puzzlement grows as Cao Mao only gets 2.3.  Lol, I am obviously out of touch with what the gamers want out of their emperors.

Cao Huan: and we have a new victor for the lowest score.  Cao Huan gets a phenomenal .9

Wei Rankings:
S Class:
Jia Xu: 5
Deng Ai: 5 (post)

A Class:
Chen Tai: 4.8 (post)
Li Dian: 4.2
Han Sui: 4.1
Zhang Xiu: 4

B Class:
Yu Jin: 3.9
Gui Huai: 3.9 (post)
Lady Bian: 3.8
Zhuge Dan: 3.7 (post)
Wen Pin: 3.4
Xun Yu: 3.4
Cao Rui: 3.4
Cao Xiu: 3.3
Xin Xiangyang: 3.1
Chen Deng: 3

C Class:
Cao Zhen: 2.9
Yue Jin: 2.9
Man Chong: 2.9
Kong Rong: 2.7
Guo Jia: 2.5
Zang Ba: 2.4
Cao Hong: 2.4
Liu Ye: 2.3
Cao Mao: 2.3 (post)
Zhang Yan: 2.2
Lady Guo: 2.1
Li Tong: 2.1
Jie Kui: 2
Xiahou Shang: 2

D Class:
Cheng Yu: 1.9
Zhong Hui: 1.8 (post)
Cao Fang: 1.8 (post)
Cai Yan: 1.5
Wang Wi: 1.5
Cao Zhang: 1.4
Yang Xiu: 1.3
Jiao Chu: 1.1
Hao Zhao: 1.1

E Class:
Jiang Xu: 1
Cao Zhi: 1
Cao Huan: .9 (post)

[Nick]

Jiang Qin: Being a pirate gets him a straight 3.  it will be interesting to compare how the Wu characters do against the Wei characters, since Wu is less fleshed out in general.

Pan Zhong: Even with all the discussions that have sprang up with him, he still only lands with a fair 3.3 ranking.

Cheng Pu: Mostly due to the older rankings, Cheng Pu wound up with a 3.3 as well.  Interestingly, his rankings were much lower this time around, but I have been combining the rankings from last time into these ones as well.

Han Dang: The same applies to Han Dang.  Previously, his rankings had been higher, but he recently got a bunch of 1's, dropping his previous score down to 2.2

Zhu Ran: With almost solid 4's across the board, he winds up at 3.8, which makes him the highest ranked Wu character so far.

Second batch of Wu characters coming tonight.

[scholar]

I'll be waiting

Though I think it's a mystery that Cao Mao got a low score... truthfully I see a lot of potential for him.

[Nick]

Xu Sheng

Current battles: Xou Kuo, Chi Bi, He Fei, Yi Ling,
New battles: Ruxu, Dongkuo, Cao Pi's Invasion.
Persona:  He is described as powerful, and was in charge of training the men.  He strikes me as a Huang Gai type of figure, though Huang Gai is already on Wu so...

New Events:  In the Battle of Ruxu, they're boat is forced to land by strong winds and Xu Sheng alone among the commanders fought back the Wei forces until they were able to put the ship back in the water.  During the battle of Dongkuo, the same thing, but a typhoon this time, hit them while they were fighting against Cao Xiu.  During Cao Pi's invasion, he ignored all the criticism that he was given and built a huge wall.  This deterred Cao Pi.

Relationships: Sun Quan liked him a lot, argued with Sun Shao
Overall:  He introduces a lot of levels that should be playable, and also has some very notable exploits.  His lack of a persona or relationships hurts him a little bit though.  However, if they add him, it is almost certain that at least one of his new levels will be included.
3.5/5

Sun Shao

Current battles: Chi Bi, He Fei, He Fei Castle
New battles: Ruxu, Cao Pi's Invasion
Persona:  Brave, but impatient.

New Events:  Didn't listen to Xu Sheng and rushed an attack against Cao Pi.  However, because of the wall Xu Sheng had built, Cao Pi retreated, and Ding Feng and Sun Shao were able to ambush him and score a large victory in the novel.
Relationships: Adopted by Sun Ce, cared for by Sun Quan, argued with Xu Sheng
Overall:  His family ties confuse the Wu family tree even more, and his events with Xu Sheng are quite memorable from the novel.  They also tie in with Ding Feng, whom we will see more of later, and he has a fairly well made persona as well.

3.5/5

He Qi:

Current battles: Conquest of Wu, Chi Bi, He Fei,
New battles: Invasion against the Shanyue (like.. 4 of them)
Persona:  He loved to wear the most lavish outfits, and his ships always had banners and such decorating them.

New Events:  During the Invasion against the Shanyue, his men had to use their arrows to climb a cliff, and he also had to use fallen trees as clubs because they had a magician that dulled their blades and sent their arrows back to the archers.
Relationships: None
Overall:  His many major military accomplishments have very little to do with the actual three kingdoms.  He was primarily concerned with expanding the state of Wu and settling internal rebellions, of which there were many.  However, even the SGZ paints his battles as incredible, and though he is not mentioned at all in the novel, I think he would be a cool add.  After all... I really, really want the Shanyue.
3/5

[Nick]

Sun Huan:


Current battles: He Fei, He Fei castle
New battles: Ruxu, Invasion of Jing, Fan Castle, Yi Ling
Persona:  Young, trusting, and hopeful.

New Events: At Yi Ling, he volunteered to lead a force against Liu Bei.  He ended up getting trapped in a castle, and requested reinforcements.  None came, but he did not lose hope, because he knew Lu Xun must be up to something, and Lu Xun was able to save him by beating back the main force and causing the rest to retreat. 
Relationships: A cousin to Sun Shao, a nephew of Sun Ce and Quan.
Overall:  Another family member, this one event does stand out in most people's memories, though I don't believe it to be enough to warrant inclusion in the game personally.
2/5

Quan Cong


Current battles: Fan Castle, Shi Ting
New battles: Invasion against the Shanyue, Capture of Guan Yu, Dong kuo, Invasion of Taiwan
Persona:  His father was a scholar, and Quan Cong seemed to have done some scholarly things.  It is possible that KOEI might play him out to be a might more of an adviser type.

New Events:  he submitted a plan to capture Guan Yu during his invasion at Fan, but Sun Quan pretended the idea was silly, so as to not let slip his secret plan with Lu meng.
Relationships: none really.
Overall:  An almost entirely unknown general, Quan Cong was involved in many battles and also makes Fan Castle a bit more interesting with his own idea.  Plus, he adds to the possible inclusion of the Shanyue, so I like him just for that.
1.5/5