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[Nick]

Jiang Qin: Pirates are cool. 2/5

Pan Zhang: Awesome pirates who kill Guan Yu and Guan Ping and indulge in pillaging even their own side are better. 4.5/5

Cheng Pu: He has his role to serve, I suppose... the role of fan-dom.  2/5 mostly for popularity.

Han Dang: I like him, even though I don't know why.  1.5/5

Zhu Ran:  I used to love this guy.  He used to be my number 1 requested character.  Now however... I just don't see the appeal I used to.  He adds a lot, but... 4/5

[ShuFan]

Cheng Pu
However, I get so tired of fans complain about him that a part of me wants him just to kinda shut some people up.

*Gasp* Am I a fanboy? Oh no! I don't complain, though. I know how you feel, I feel the same way about Hua Xiong.

and correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Zhu Ran's funeral like the 2nd or 3rd largest in all of Wu?

I do believe you're right. I think he was third after Ling Tong and someone else, maybe Zhou Yu, or Lu Xun.

Oh, it wasn't Xing it was Ping. "When being pursued by Guan Yu's son Guan Ping, he encountered the dead spirit of Guan Yu, in his shock, was easily slain." From the RTK11 Bio. Even if that isn't added, I still think hes an interesting addition.

No, you were right the first time. It was Guan Xing who avenged his father. Guan Ping was killed along with Yu.

[GuardianAlexio]

Umm... Didn't Pan Zhang see "Guan Yu's ghost" (Although it was really Xing) and then get slain by him?

I'm confused  now  

Oh, it wasn't Xing it was Ping. "When being pursued by Guan Yu's son Guan Ping, he encountered the dead spirit of Guan Yu, in his shock, was easily slain." From the RTK11 Bio. Even if that isn't added, I still think hes an interesting addition.

Ma Su's the kinda guy that prefers the history over the novel. Despite the fact that Pan Zhang died in the novel by Guan Xing, thinking he was looking at the ghost of Guan Yu...Pan Zhang historically outlived Guan Xing. Some of the novel deaths are so outrageous (especially one's revolving around Guan F'ing Yu's Ghost) that I think some of us prefer to never think about them.

I do believe you're right. I think he was third after Ling Tong and someone else, maybe Zhou Yu, or Lu Xun.

Thats what I thought, I knew Ling Tong was also one of the larger funerals in Wu and I thought Zhu Ran was just behind him. I just rechecked it was Lu Meng whom was the other one.

[scholar]

Umm... Didn't Pan Zhang see "Guan Yu's ghost" (Although it was really Xing) and then get slain by him?

I'm confused  now  

Oh, it wasn't Xing it was Ping. "When being pursued by Guan Yu's son Guan Ping, he encountered the dead spirit of Guan Yu, in his shock, was easily slain." From the RTK11 Bio. Even if that isn't added, I still think hes an interesting addition.

It was Xing, Ping was dead along with his father.

[Ma Su]

Ma Su's the kinda guy that prefers the history over the novel. Despite the fact that Pan Zhang died in the novel by Guan Xing, thinking he was looking at the ghost of Guan Yu...Pan Zhang historically outlived Guan Xing. Some of the novel deaths are so outrageous (especially one's revolving around Guan F'ing Yu's Ghost) that I think some of us prefer to never think about them.

Bolded for correctness.

My knowledge of history is better then novel so yeah I lean towards that but I'm happy to use novel stuff if it betters a character without hurting another (ie Taischi Ci's novel death boosts Liao and Ci, Guan Yu killing Yan Liang and Wen Chou hurts nobody.) Guess what I mean is best source wins as long as it doesn't muck things up for another character or make someone too godly

Umm... Didn't Pan Zhang see "Guan Yu's ghost" (Although it was really Xing) and then get slain by him?

I'm confused  now 

Oh, it wasn't Xing it was Ping. "When being pursued by Guan Yu's son Guan Ping, he encountered the dead spirit of Guan Yu, in his shock, was easily slain." From the RTK11 Bio. Even if that isn't added, I still think hes an interesting addition.

As others have said RTK11 is wrong. Historically? No, in fact Guan Xing and Pan Zhang probably never saw each other face to face. It does happen in the novel but that part of the novel, where Guan Yu's ghost kills Lu Meng, helps kill Pan Zhang plus rescue Guan Xing at another point was ridiculous. I guess LGZ tried to balance it out by making Guan Yu's part in Jing's fall overplayed and by having him confess Yan Liang/Wen Chou kills as cheating (which makes no sense to me) but the attempt to balance doesn't work. Only Shu characters return as battle changing ghosts and while Wei gets mystic help at Tong Gate, generally they or Wu merely got ghosts that haunt them to show how evil they are.

In a game like DW where you have three main kingdoms and several characters, there are two things that I think are important.

1) No kingdom is blatantly more saintly then the others. In the novel, most Shu guys wear halo's and try to cure world hunger, Wei guys kick puppies and worship Satan (though oddly, Cao Cao is more anti hero then villain and is one of the best characters) while Wu is a backstabbing third wheel. LGZ had good reason to do this but game wise, this generally makes a game worse. Each side should have it's nasty moments, nasty characters but also good characters and good moments, DW6 took a massive step in the right direction with this. On a side note, some of the best stories in games I have played (VC and MGS) had bad sides to the good guys and good sides to the villains so perhaps a general rule for certain types of games too.

2) No character should be overpowered. Lu Bu at Hu Lao is but that is a one off and he has arguably been made less powerful as the series goes on, as the best warrior of the time a slight edge to him is understandable. However if some characters are blatantly better then the other (everyone has their favorites, fair enough), I would consider the game makers to have failed

Pan Zhang being a psychopath may cause koei trouble with the first I admit but Wu didn't have the restrained culture Wei and Shu inherited from their educated gentry lands, Wu was a place of barbarians and exiles. It was to Quan's great credit that he managed to balance two extremes, the Zhang Zhao type strict moralists and the psychopaths like Pan Zhang and Gan Ning for most of his reign, it was part of what Wu was, part of what made it great.

Guan Yu's ghost going around affecting battles and killing things? Since he (and Zhuge Liang in Shu's fall but DW doesn't go that far) is the only guy to do that, this makes it both Shu biased and Guan Yu overpowering. At the moment, while Guan Yu is understandably given the culture made God of War, he is generally balanced well enough but this? "Oh yeah, Wu don't get ghosts of their warriors blatantly killing off opposition DW's, only Guan Yu and Shu can go and do that"

[Rivus]

Guan Yu's ghost going around affecting battles and killing things? Since he (and Zhuge Liang in Shu's fall but DW doesn't go that far) is the only guy to do that, this makes it both Shu biased and Guan Yu overpowering. At the moment, while Guan Yu is understandably given the culture made God of War, he is generally balanced well enough but this? "Oh yeah, Wu don't get ghosts of their warriors blatantly killing off opposition DW's, only Guan Yu and Shu can go and do that"

Your taking what I said wrong, what I meant is that I can imagine a cutscene in the Yi Ling battle where Pan Zhang get's a scare from "Guan's ghost" and is slain (or if your playing as Xing, you fight him first) by Guan Xing. I don't see any harm in that, while I agree having a ghost go around and killing officers is ridiculous, it is not what I was suggesting. I apologize if that's how you read it, but that's not what I intended. So are we all cleared up on this now?

Besides the game is based off the novel and it doesn't hurt to have novel events, while I agree it is wrong to make one force saintly and the other one evil, seeing that both forces Wei and Shu had their own claims to legitimacy.

So yeah, the way I see it is that Pan Zhang didn't really see Guan Yu's ghost, but what he did see was a hallucination brought by Xing and his likeness of his father.

[Ma Su]

Sorry, Guan Yu turns up on the battle, scares a DW so much that he is then killed. Yes Xing wields the blow, Guan Yu still overpowerfully affects the battle and causes a death or, as I put it, kills someone by his mystical actions. Now your proposal as to what exactly happens instead isn't bad

So yeah, the way I see it is that Pan Zhang didn't really see Guan Yu's ghost, but what he did see was a hallucination brought by Xing and his likeness of his father.

1) That would require a lot of explaining but doable

2) Do Wu and Wei get their own moments where this happens?

[Rivus]

Sorry, Guan Yu turns up on the battle, scares a DW so much that he is then killed. Yes Xing wields the blow, Guan Yu still overpowerfully affects the battle and causes a death or, as I put it, kills someone by his mystical actions

Well I wouldn't call someone hallucinating mystical, it's something that could be brought on by "Battle Fatigue" as they called in WW1.

1) That would require a lot of explaining but doable

Picture this as a cutscene, it shows Pan Zhang charging the enemy with the screen kind of shaky. But then he see's "Guan Yu" running toward him. Then the camera shifts to Zhang who is startled/shocked. His eyes are wide open and he says something like "G-G-Guan Yu!? Bu-but I thought I... I-" Then he gets cut down and it shows Xing charging on ahead and he says something about avenging his father.

2) Do Wu and Wei get their own moments where this happens?

Well, did anything like this happen to Wu/Wei in the novel or in actual history? Let me think on it for a bit. It could happen in a way that the player could save Pan Zhang, like with Pang Tong in Cheng Du. Yeah ooooh... I can see it now.

If your playing as Wu in Yi Ling you won't see the cutscene, but Pan will stutter about how he thought he captured Guan Yu. Then a message appears saying "Pan Zhang has stopped his offensive and has become motionless."

Then the leader of the battle (Lu Xun I think?) Will order the officer your playing (Or will make a statement as himself, think "What is Pan Zhang doing? I will go see") as to go and see what is wrong with Pan Zhang and you will be given a time limit to which you can save him (like with Tong...).

Now this could be interesting if your playing as Pan Zhang, because this would be cool with his Musou Mode. A different cutscene would appear where he becomes scared that he sees Guan Yu, but he at first stutters in shock "G-G-Guan Yu, bu-but I thought... I..." Then he regains himself and says  "No, no I captured you once, and I will kill you a second time if I must!"

Then he could have a duel or something with Guan Yu's appearance and weapon (but he uses Xing's moveset). Then after Pan Zhang wins the duel it shows Guan Xing say something about not having his revenge, and then he retreats. Then Zhang realises that it was an hallucination all along, and the battle resumes.

To be honest that sounds fair in gameplay.

[Ma Su]

Picture this as a cutscene, it shows Pan Zhang charging the enemy with the screen kind of shaky. But then he see's "Guan Yu" running toward him. Then the camera shifts to Zhang who is startled/shocked. His eyes are wide open and he says something like "G-G-Guan Yu!? Bu-but I thought I... I-" Then he gets cut down and it shows Xing charging on ahead and he says something about avenging his father.

so Guan Yu is a less overpowered ghost but still only one other then any Yu Ji level. He already has God of War title, does he need to be a ghost?

Well, did anything like this happen to Wu/Wei in the novel or in actual history? Let me think on it for a bit

well the novel doesn't consider Wu or Wei as saints so no. There was a historical Dong general who was considered to have been killed by the ghost of somebody he had killed a few months back but that's as far as ghost=death as historically we get.

If your playing as Wu in Yi Ling you won't see the cutscene, but Pan will stutter about how he thought he captured Guan Yu. Then a message appears saying "Pan Zhang has stopped his offensive and has become motionless."

why not make it a Shu trick and clearly make sure everyone knows it is a Shu trick after the battle. A trick of Yue Ying's, it would explain the one off without being Guan worshipping

[Nick]

I dislike Guan Yu, but even I think that the idea is pretty sweet. lol.

[Rivus]

Well at this point Ma Su I really don't know what to tell you. I already explained that Guan Yu's ghost will not be an officer on the battlefield and will only appear in Pan Zhang's cutscene. Wait, what am I saying? It's not even a ghost, it's a figment of Zhangs imagination.

Oh and there was one other stage in a Dynasty Warriors game where there were "ghosts" on the field. On Dynasty Warriors 4 if you got to the stage where you fight Sun Jian at Jian Ye he will end up appearing as 4 different people at the same time. Oh and don't forget about the hallucinations brought on by the YT in DW4 and DW5.

The only thing that you seem to be in disagreement is making Guan Yu (well actually not Guan Yu, but Zhang and Xing) have an event. Even you say that he had the title of God of War, which of course he isn't really that great historically but we are talking about a Warriors game... So... Yeah.

why not make it a Shu trick and clearly make sure everyone knows it is a Shu trick after the battle. A trick of Yue Ying's, it would explain the one off without being Guan worshipping

Oh, like when in Wu Zhang Plains where Zhuge Liang dies, but they make it seem as though he is alive to scare Sima Yi.

Uhhh, I don't think that would work considering that Sun Quan had him executed personally.

And didn't Cao Cao have a funeral for him?

AND WEREN'T THEY BRINGING ON THAT WHOLE BATTLE BECAUSE GUAN YU DIED?

[Ma Su]

Well at this point Ma Su I really don't know what to tell you. I already explained that Guan Yu's ghost will not be an officer on the battlefield and will only appear in Pan Zhang's cutscene. Wait, what am I saying? It's not even a ghost, it's a figment of Zhangs imagination.

so ok, we make Pan Zhang suffer something that only he suffers, nobody else gets it. Now perhaps the reaction would be "poor Pan Zhang, suffering the horrors of war" or it will be a less mature reaction. I dislike one guy being picked our for such a weakness/boon (I would love to see Cao Cao lieing down ill on a bed and feeling haunted by what happened) rather then the idea itself

Oh and there was one other stage in a Dynasty Warriors game where there were "ghosts" on the field. On Dynasty Warriors 4 if you got to the stage where you fight Sun Jian at Jian Ye he will end up appearing as 4 different people at the same time. Oh and don't forget about the hallucinations brought on by the YT in DW4 and DW5.

that was a Turban ploy though

The only thing that you seem to be in disagreement is making Guan Yu (well actually not Guan Yu, but Zhang and Xing) have an event. Even you say that he had the title of God of War, which of course he isn't really that great historically but we are talking about a Warriors game... So... Yeah.

I accept the Guan Yu God of War thing as a) I know it won't change and b) think it is expected in Asia. Would rather drop that title myself but eh, it is handled well enough to avoid it being "Guan Yu roxc and the rest are the sucks".

My disagreement is this returning to life/mental breakdown only happening to one person which either inflates Guan Yu or potentially destroys any chance of a Pan Zhang fanbase.

Oh, like when in Wu Zhang Plains where Zhuge Liang dies, but they make it seem as though he is alive to scare Sima Yi.

Uhhh, I don't think that would work considering that Sun Quan had him executed personally.

And didn't Cao Cao have a funeral for him?

If the whole, they saw Guan Yu die thing means we can't use that ploy, why then would the haunting thing work? If Pan Zhang can be haunted by a guy he knows he is dead, he can be tricked using it. If you want a precedent for it, in the novel Zhuge Zhan tricks Deng Zhong by dressing up as Zhuge Liang, Wei see "Liang" and panic. The fact that Zhuge Liang would have been leading armies and the country if alive, while he would also have been 100 doesn't seem to have entered their heads

There is nothing that says Liu Bei can't use revenge as a motive due to my suggestion. Was Yi Ling about revenge? Novel wise yes as Liu Bei is a crybaby, the game more or less follows this. The historical reason was it was the correct political and military choice, that Liu Bei had to show he could stand up to Wu for Shu's own future and the timing seemed right with Wu reeling from loss of commanders and Wei expected to invade Wu soon (which would have allowed Liu Bei to force a treaty in his favor). Guan Yu's death makes a better rallying cry though

[scholar]

Confucian ideals Ma Su. Well that and Buddhism. Ancestors appearing before their decedents, and tales of old warriors returning to life to defend their homeland. The spirit world, and immortals existed in the minds of the Chinese people back then.

[Ma Su]

So can we have Cao Cao doing the same thing for Pi?

[scholar]

So can we have Cao Cao doing the same thing for Pi?

Did Cao Cao appear in folklore, history, or novel while Pi was Emperor?