next »

[Ma Su]

Zhang Yang was noted for his skill in battle, Gong inherited his position which Dun wouldn't, Zhang inherited and performed badly. Liu Biao showed skill as a commander, he wasn't top drawer but he was capable enough. He actually won battles

Cao Cao and Liu Bei were lucky in that capable men flocked to them,

I would have thought that was due to the two warlords immense charisma.

You have a point with the terrain but then, Sun Ce (to a lesser extent Quan), Liu Yan and Liu Bei had to conquer the places in the first instance

[Humble Hero]

They conquered them from much lesser men. It was their luck that the quality of the men in control was poor.

As you said, Zhang inherited his position and performed poorly. Bei was practically able to walk on in and sit down on the throne. (as far as take overs go anyway, he didnt really have massive opposition)

Lets just say, for arguement, Dun somehow inherited Liu Yan's land, and all officers were disbanded, and re-joined forces of their choosing. Dont you think he would attract at least *some* talent, and make a name for himself?

[Ma Su]

He did face determined resistance from the likes of Liu Xun and could have gone on longer if Liu Zhang had accepted the advice to keep fighting.

Lets just say, for arguement, Dun somehow inherited Liu Yan's land, and all officers were disbanded, and re-joined forces of their choosing. Dont you think he would attract at least *some* talent, and make a name for himself?

He would have faced fights from Hu Mao, Liu Zhang, Zhang Lu and others, he would have been defeated and someone else taken over Yi

[looknohands]

Zhang Yang was successful before he got killed. Gongsun Gong was highly successful, he just lost his seat of power. Liu Zhang was successful, unless you care to say otherwise? Liu Biao was successful. Zhang Yang and Gongsun Gong may have been more down to earth examples, but Zhang and Biao were major powers who, as far as we know, were not very skilled at leading an army. Maybe at leading men, but most certainly not at leading an army.

Yang was hardly a "major" warlord, and debatable at being a "successful" one.  Gongsun Gong inherited a position isolated from the war, and was nominally subservient to Cao Cao so I wouldn't necessarily even categorize him as a warlord.  Zhang was successful in pretty much nothing...he inherited his position, then failed to subdue Zhang Lu or the opposition to his rule within his own kingdom.  Liu Biao was a major warlord, yes, but I'd hesitate to call him a successful one.  Yes, he settled parts of Jing, but he also missed every chance presented to him to influence affairs in the center of the land, and his most notable military achievement was Huang Zu's constant stifling of the Sun family.  Zu, however, appears to have enjoyed a sizeable amount of autonomy.
Compare that to Xiahou Dun, who was a failure as a military commander and went to take up administrative roles for Cao Cao.  Is he recorded as having done anything of note (i.e. Du Ji, Liu Fu, Liang Xi) during this time, or was his appointment the result of enjoying Cao Cao's favors?   

[Yue Fei]

You don't even have to look at the period to show successful people who could not lead armies. Liu Bang for example was an extremely horrible battlefield commander (compared to Xiang Yu). Yet look at how successful he became. Or Emperor Wudi, he did not have any extensive military experience at all, and yet the Han empire was greatly expanded in size under his rule. Emperor Wen of Sui was not a military mind at all, and was in fact quite an able administrator, and Sui managed to unify China. Sure the dynasty only lasted for 37 years, but regardless of that, Emperor Wen was still successful.

Not to mention Dun has one notable person to help him if he was ever a ruler, and that's his brother. Then also take note that he was related to Cao Cao. If Mr. Mengde was not a warlord, and Xiahou Dun was do you not think he would help his cousin? And then all the people related to Cao Cao as well (sons, other cousins, etc.)?

Dun himself had a pretty sizable network of people to help him out as well as offer him connections to others. I wouldn't be so quick to say he could not make it (or even be moderately successful).

[scholar]

Zhang Yang was noted for his skill in battle, Gong inherited his position which Dun wouldn't, Zhang inherited and performed badly. Liu Biao showed skill as a commander, he wasn't top drawer but he was capable enough. He actually won battles

Yang was a general, I'm not entirely sure he was noted for his skill in battle though. Dun was a general as well, and I'm pretty sure he would have been noted for his skill in battle it would just depend whether or not the skill was good for winning or good for losing. Zhang was an early warlord who faced many tough problems. Inherited or not the area was hotly contested between four warlords, three of which used to serve him, two of which would go back to serving him.

Also Dun wasn't a complete Military Failure:
"Therefore Dun gathered a small army and went to the rescue. On his way there he encountered Lü Bu and his troops, and they fought. Lü Bu retreated"

His leadership skills:
"During his term of office there were sometimes drought and locust attacks. Dun blockaded the river and used the fertile riverbed for agricultural purposes. He led his men to join in the labor and he carried soil on his back like the peasants. The people benefited because of his leadership, and later Dun became the governor of He’nan."

Huh, I thought I posted this a while ago... better late then never. 4 new replies? I'll get to them a little later.

[Humble Hero]

Thats the sort of thing I think would greatly aid Dun in his time as a warlord.

He was a capable politician, and did not place himself above the peasants. As I have pointed out elsewhere, he often used his own wealth to fund projects, rather then the kingdoms. This shows he can clearly generate his own income, and deal efficiently with problems, while still being frugal.

Also, his soldiers. Whether he could get them to help through electrifying speeches, or extra pay, he clearly was able to command them well enough (if not in war then in peace)

[Gongsun Zan]

I believe that a person who could have been a great warlord was Taishi Ci.  He was reportedly able to analyze situations very well and act accordingly.  Plenty of people vouched for him and his trustworthiness and even his loyalty.  Seeing this to me says he could be loyal and responsible to the people and know what would be best for them.

[GuanXing-Shu]

To answer the original thread question, Liu Bei prolly was considering to attack anyway, wasn't really tricked.

For the latter parts, I think I would have to agree with Yue Fei way back in the thread about how is betrayal of Cao Cao was the only real betrayal. I don't really feel he betrayed Wu mainly because Sun Quan was trying to turn his force into a vassal of his army.

[Yue Fei]

Notice

If you wish to address anything in this topic, quote what was said, and make a new topic. All the old topic names are still intact.