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[Quentinos]

Yep, that is quite so I believe. Still, I would rather join to the western armies.  is not about "cool" or fighting along with western famous generals. Is simply about beliefs. My beliefs is not with the Tokugawa. For someone like Mitsunari who knows nothing to war, going extent efforts to gain supports from the retainers(Mitsunari did invite Kiyomasa Kato and Masanori Fukushima, but rejected) to fight against a veteran and powerful daimyos like Ieyasu.

This alone, is already a good reason enough for me to join Mitsunari's forces. One must find his own beliefs to fight his war, doesn't it?     

[wassupimviet]

Tokugawa Ieyasu knew how to rule Japan. If he could set up a long standing government that still stood, despite having less than spectacular successors, Ieyasu must have done something right to ensure the continued strength of the Tokugawa family over the shogunal position.

Besides, Mitsunari was a snake when it came to rising against the Tokugawa during the Sekigahara campaign. Kidnapping wives, blackmailing daimyo, it was all a big scheme to get as much support as possible under his unpopular banner. The man himself, while he may have just been honest, was disliked for his critical reports against them during the Imjin Wars. Two of these people were Fukushima and Kato.

Furthermore, with the Tokugawa instead basing his power on his extensive marriage system and friendly relations, I would think he had the more humane approach to things.

[Quentinos]

"Snake" is a strong word my friend I can understand Mitsunari of the means  for going that far; to win the war. Each man have its own methods and ideas for recruiting, which I can't judge. His criticsm for Kato and Fukushima did lay him in a bad position; but on the hand, proud person who can't admit his fault is a bad officers as well . As a result, the both of them were eliminated by Ieyasu once the sekigahara battle was over.

I was a soldier once, an reserve army for my country for 3 years. " There is only 1 rule in the battlefield; win it!" There is no stated rules, what it should done, or should not be done in the battle, all it matters, is to win it.

Someone like Mitsunari, unlike Ieyasu which is a daimyos himself owning a vast lands and retainers, he was actually capable of summoning Yoshihiro Shimazu, Kagekatsu Uesugi, Konishi Yukinaga, Yoshisugu Otani, Sakon Shima, Hideie Ukita, Morichika Chosakabe I find it quite astonishing.(I didnt mention mori, because they were persuaded by Ankekuji)

If Mitsunari bow downs to Ieyasu, he will be letting down on his late lords expectation for entrusting Hideyori to him. if u were Mitsunari, do u bow down? or held up against Ieyasu?

   

[wassupimviet]

That's the thing, I'm not Mitsunari. I'm looking at this from hindsight, and it's 20/20.

And, actually, Hideyoshi did not entrust Mitsunari with Hideyori. If anything, he entrusted Maeda Toshiie with Hideyori, he being the highest ranked of the five regents.

Also, Tokugawa did win it. Very easily, I believe, since he was quite able to fight a long standing campaign while Ishida was only ready for a single shot. He just did it in a way that guaranteed a vast network of support.

Anyway. While Mitsunari was able to get a hold on the clans of Shikoku, Kyushu, and Chugoku, he was only able to get them since they were mainly comprised of loyalists and he blackmailed the rest. As for Ieyasu, he had far more legitimate means to consolidate his power. One must also remember that Mitsunari made the first move, not Ieyasu. The man even sheltered Ishida Mitsunari after he was on the run, for he was the mastermind of a plot to assassinate Tokugawa Ieyasu. Far gentler than I would have been.

[Quentinos]

Hideyoshi did entrusted his expectations on Mitsunari's  Toshiie Maeda may have been Hideyoshi long term and loyal friend, but he entrusted the guidance of Hideyori over to Mitsunari. Theres a way back long story, why would Hideyoshi be trusting and grooming Mitsunari in a high position. (I wont go to the details)

I didn't mean anything Ieyasu did not win the battle or something, I simply pointing out, there is nothing wrong for the both of them to use their ways or methods to win the war; even which is holding hostages of the daimyos wives or relatives or making marriage alliance to join either of them.

But I would say Ieyasu won the battle in a very close call. If it weren't for the defection of the Hideaki Kobbayakawa from the western. This battle would have landed in a draw. Hideaki, although he often compare to traitor, because of his defection in Sekigahara, is quite a shrewd man himself as well. Ieyasu wasn't 100% to persuade Hideaki to defect for him, as Mitsunari also offers a tempting offer by bestowing Regent titles to Hideaki. It was starting from Sakon's falls at the front lines, other western comrades didnt make any advance movement that convince Hideaki, the tide of war has turn favour for Ieyasu. THEN, Hideaki defects. It was a ghost card for Ieyasu, luckily it worked 

Anyway. While Mitsunari was able to get a hold on the clans of Shikoku, Kyushu, and Chugoku, he was only able to get them since they were mainly comprised of loyalists and he blackmailed the rest. As for Ieyasu, he had far more legitimate means to consolidate his power. One must also remember that Mitsunari made the first move, not Ieyasu.

 
 Yep, I agree. but I also did mentioned,..

There is no stated rules, what it should done, or should not be done in the battle, all it matters, is to win it.    

Ultimately, Ieyasu is the winner of this game and played it very well. Mitsunari, Yukinaga, Otani, Sakon and Yoshihiro's son died in this war. They have strong beliefs for what they are fighting and protecting for, and my belief is with them as well. 
 

[bugg333]

-.- Since this is in the Historical+non-game board, i will answer this question as well as show the falseness in your opinion... that goes to whoever made this thread, i read the first post.

My answer: Eastern. period. wanna take it to the game? sure we could do that. What would happen when these friends unite japan? good you'd hope, right? well then answer me what you think would happen when they DIE? i'll tell you what- rebellion, no question. you'd need the "one man ruler" thing, becasue then the people on his, tokugawa's, side because so many people fought for him and so many officers joined him. and when he dies after uniting japan, they'll know what family took the land, and thus a successor get's picked, no big deal, end of story. and realistically the western army won and their shogunate that formed kept peace for 200 years. so where's you "friendship" there mitsunari, kanetsugu, yukimura?

those three were historically way different however. mitsunari was a daimyo with flaws that were easily shown, yukimura was a samurai that followed the usual samurai code: fight and die honorably for the daimyo. in which he died "honorably" fighting for his side. simple as that. kanetsugu, believe it or not, didn't fight at all! he rolled around in his chair commanding, and don't get me wrong- he did that well, but none the less happened to be fighting for a fool of a commander. Yuki, mit, and kan were barely friends if you ask me, they were just doing their job to tell the truth.... well mitsunari not as much.- ANYWAYS....i believe i've made my point.

[su lu pi]

if its personal ive got to say east but im a scot so weve got the celtic history so in sorry ive got to say west just cos im scotish

[baby_eater]

if its personal ive got to say east but im a scot so weve got the celtic history so in sorry ive got to say west just cos im scotish

Great reason.

[su lu pi]

what about you?
wait a minute eas that sarcasim?

[Quentinos]

Aye, Su Lu Pi, can you tell us a bit more about the reason? I'm a bit curious as well, for the upper statements. Scottish for western army, personal for eastern army? 

I'm a chinese live in south east asia, for your information 

[wassupimviet]

Great reason.

I reciprocate your words on this matter.

Still, all for Ieyasu. Hideyori was far too incompetent to do any good, or at least he was too coddled by his mother later in life to be of use. Besides, we're not even certain if Ishida really even fought for the Toyotomi, or just used it as an excuse to take out Ieyasu.

[baby_eater]

I reciprocate your words on this matter.

Still, all for Ieyasu. Hideyori was far too incompetent to do any good, or at least he was too coddled by his mother later in life to be of use. Besides, we're not even certain if Ishida really even fought for the Toyotomi, or just used it as an excuse to take out Ieyasu.

I completely agree Hideyori was useless, and I don't think Ishida fought for him, but rather for personal gain.  you Koei, you've built up hatred of Ieyasu inside me! I should love that chubby genius! UURGH!

what about you?
wait a minute eas that sarcasim?

My reasons? Look through the other 14 pages or so of this topic.

[su lu pi]

Aye, Su Lu Pi, can you tell us a bit more about the reason? I'm a bit curious as well, for the upper statements. Scottish for western army, personal for eastern army? 

I'm a chinese live in south east asia, for your information 

becaus il be beeten up for nos sideing whith scotland. besides the weather heres terible
and scotland is in the west

[Takanobu Ryuzoji]

I completely agree Hideyori was useless, and I don't think Ishida fought for him, but rather for personal gain.  you Koei, you've built up hatred of Ieyasu inside me! I should love that chubby genius! UURGH!

Ishida was ambitious aswell, but he had a bad reputation between the Toyotomi ranks, that and those women he kidnapped made the majority join the Tokugawa. I'd side with the Tokugawa and the East, for a number of reasons I've already said before. I want peace, and I know Ieyasu can mantain that, so I'd join the East. I know Koei has made some hatred for them, I hope SW3 isn't so West-army directed, but more central.

becaus il be beeten up for nos sideing whith scotland. besides the weather heres terible
and scotland is in the west

Err.. what? What are you talking about? Scotland? This is called Japanese Warring States Non-Game Historical Discussions for a reason...

[bugg333]

Aye, Su Lu Pi, can you tell us a bit more about the reason? I'm a bit curious as well, for the upper statements. Scottish for western army, personal for eastern army? 

I'm a chinese live in south east asia, for your information 

Holy crap i didn't know that Quin! where do you stand on all this then? east because it's closest to you?