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[Humble Hero]

I think the language of that post may have derailed it a bit. Yes, Zhou Yu certainly deserves some praise for his accomplishment there, but perhaps a little less praise compared to what he is currently getting. Dont get me wrong, it's an achievement and at the end of the day, a victory is a victory, but I feel to earn all the praise he gets he should have achieved a little better...

I dont know. Again, this is a personal gripe I have with Zhou Yu for escaping the scrutiny that other novel-gods have endured recently.

[Ma Su]

Are we gong to get any more of those lists?

  To be fair Ma Su, the defender didn't have all disadvantages.  After all, they were led by Cao Ren. 

Zhou Yu beating Cao Ren is worthy of the praise that he gets. I mean... it's Cao freaken Ren!

All kidding aside, I am more inclined to agree with Louhawk on his assessment of Jiang Ling.  Perhaps I am forgetting something, but why do you believe that Zhou Yu gets more credit than deserved for that particular campaign?

and the defenders were defending. Cao Ren did not have the best officers, Wei had just been demoralized, grip on the area was not secure and I believe Wu had the numbers advantage. Zhou Yu had excellent officers, whose advice would prove so useful to the commander, an army fresh from a major victory and would get the better of early skirmishes yet got dragged out for a long time. A vital time which stalled momentum and left Wu with a far weaker position in Jing then they would have hoped for.

I'm not arguing that Zhou Yu did badly. He did well, he beat a major figure and showed several admirable attributes/qualities. However it is not as good a victory as some portray it as.

[Humble Hero]

If nobody minds perhaps my interjection here.

Gan Ning

Zhang Liao

Zhao Yun

[Ma Su]

Gan Ning: Just right. Knowledge of his evilness is spreading and people have long recognised his brilliance.

Zhang Liao: Still think his deeds at He Fei get slightly overatted. Not someone about whom we much debate anymore, the general consensus about his abilities is probably right.

Zhao Yun: Was underatted for a time, perhaps slightly is now but I would say just right. One or two of his bigger fans probably do him harm by their attempts to assert his awesomeness.

[GuanXing-Shu]

Gan Ning: Just right if people take into mind that he shot and killed a servant boy for taking an apple.

Zhang Liao: What Ma Su said.


Zhao Yun: I still view him to be underrated, but this might be because I view him to be Shu's greatest general.

[Nick]

A good list... kind of like the three most prolific generals of each kingdom.

Gan Ning: I feel that he is just a tiny bit overrated, only due to the fan boys that he seems to draw.

Zhang Liao: The same as Gan Ning.  Just about right, but just a teensy bit over rated.

Zhao Yun: I feel that Zhao Yun is usually "just right" up until people start to enter their "Shu isn't as good as I thought it was" phase.  Once people start hating on Zhuge Liang, Guan Yu, and Liu Bei, I feel that Zhao Yun also becomes a target, and that certain people underrate him because they can't accept that he really did do the things that he is thought of having done.  Granted, his rescue of Liu Shan is a bit overly dramatic, but beyond that, he truly does deserve the praise that he gets.

[Yue Fei]

Granted, his rescue of Liu Shan is a bit overly dramatic

You think?

Still a fairly impressive feat, regardless of whether he was behind enemy lines or not. The fact that he went headlong to rescue a woman and child, with the greatest cavalry of the period either right in his midst, or extremely close by.

I think it becomes more dramatic, because Zhao Yun rescued Liu Shan twice. Kind of interesting for it to happen that way. Zhao Yun instantly picks up the "protector" archetype/trope because of it.

[GuanXing-Shu]

I think if he is known for his reliability, then I think he it's fair to say they have the right image of him.

[Humble Hero]

A good list... kind of like the three most prolific generals of each kingdom.

Heh heh, yup, that's what I was going for. They're the people that I see being the closest thing from the period to a Dynasty Warrior, at least from their respective kingdom, anyway.

Once people start hating on Zhuge Liang, Guan Yu, and Liu Bei...

But Nick, what reason could anyone possibly have to hate on the glorious, mighty, and extremely talented Guan Yu?  

I agree though. When I found out how little Guan Yu actually did, and how much credit Zhuge Liang recieved for others effort, I naturally felt that Zhao Yun's own tale must have been equally embellished.

As a side note, I always thought he was more of the heroic soldier archetype. First one in, last one out - that sort of arrangement. Though I suppose the two overlap a bit.

[Nick]

As a side note, I always thought he was more of the heroic soldier archetype. First one in, last one out - that sort of arrangement. Though I suppose the two overlap a bit.

Definitely think that's a fair assassment, but that's part of the reason I think he's underrated, as people see him as that, or as a body guard type, and overlook or ignore his tactical decisions.

[scholar]

Gan Ning: I would say a bit overrated mostly because his prominence overshadows other talented Wu generals. This enhances his importance more than it would be as Gan Ning goes from Monolithic general, to one of the most talented in a group of very talented (if cruel) generals.

Zhang Liao: Overrated. You would be surprised how many people seem to think Zhang Liao was the best general Wei had. His role also overshadows his peers and subordinates. Li Dian and others do not get the credit they deserve, nor does Cao Cao's role in the conflict. Disease is similarly downplayed and Zhang Liao's triumph, which was indeed a great one, is so embellished and idolized that he is seen as the only thing that made He Fei stand. Talented, very talented, but so much in the spotlight that other generals are shown as less in comparison.

Zhao Yun: Slightly underrated, but the argument could easily be made for him being overrated. Zhao Yun's carreer shines best after Liu Bei is dead, but popular culture provides the illusion that Zhao Yun's career was equally important and even more significant than his later years with Zhuge Liang. This overrates his earlier accomplishments, underrates his later ones, and leads to a skewed perception of a highly talented general.

[GuanXing-Shu]

Alright, I have an idea for this thread.

Instead of listing generals, this might be even more effective:


From now on, we will focus on certain battles/periods of time and determine who was the overrated, underrated, ETC. How this will work, every Sunday I will introduce a time period, this week will be The Yellow Turban Rebellion, for few days, we will focus on the Han Side, then the Yellow Turban Side, and then look for an overall afterwords. I will also introduce some new things as well.


So, here we go.


Yellow Turban Rebellion, Han side.



Most Overrated:



Most Underrated:



Weakest Link (or the biggest failure):


The greatest asset: (Doesn't have to be the most underrated person, but who do you think is the main reason why the Han did well versus the Turbans?)


Honorable Mention(s): (People you think should get some credit that might be over looked)



Now, in a couple of days, we will talk about the Turbans, so please try to keep this talk about the Han side only. And with every answer you give, give a little reason on why you picked that person.

[Ma Su]

Most Overatted: Zhu Jun for reasons mentioned earlier, his failures get forgotten and his victories mentally push him into top tier Han generals.

I would also suggest He Jin as CIC does get people going "well he must have been capable if he was commander for this" or getting credit for the victory so as a commander he gets overatted though as a political figure, he is vastly underatted. Maybe the roles of the future 3kingdom warlords may be a little overatted though not Sun Jian's.

Most Underrated: Not sure there is one really. More those whose roles get forgotten.

Weakest Link/Failure. In the field of battle, Mr Cuddles. For whatever reason, some of it may have been the situation he arrived into and against arguably the best Turban commander, their most experienced commander performed badly. In terms of humans, Zuo Feng who got Lu Zhi sacked and the eunuchs rare interference could be a problem. Overall their biggest problem was the early surprise, which left them on the backfoot for a short while.

The greatest asset: The Han seemed to have superior forces when push came to shove. In terms of generals, Huangfu Song. Gave good advice, crushed all before him, people even composed songs about him and his kill count became famous.

Honourable Mentions: Qin Xie took over a problematic area and would gain two kills before being killed in a mutiny a year or two later. The talented Fu Xie got 3/4 officer kills to his, or rather his armies credit, and served well in several battles. The eunuch Lü Qiang for his early advice (and being a useful counter-point to the idea all eunuchs are evil), Zhang Chao for breaking the deadlock that Zhu Jun was suffering in Wan

[Humble Hero]

I'm not a pro on the rebellion, but I'll contribute this.

Weakest Link: Now, I've sent hate the Emperors way before, which I'm okay admitting was a little misguided. But I would still put him in this position. It's not so much what happened during the rebellion, but rather leading up to it. Several people had expressed concerns about Zhang Jiao far earlier then the initiation of the rebellion, and indeed, Zhang Jiao was gathering quite a following, yet he ignored the warning signs, giving Zhang Jiao time to establish his plot and gather followers.

Greatest Asset: Funnily enough, I think the greatest asset The Han had was a Yellow Turban, Tang Zhou. One of the biggest blows the rebellion suffered was the fact that their plot was discovered before it could be properly executed. This is thanks to Tang Zhou, defecting to the Han and revealing the plot.

Honorable Mentions: Yang Ci, Liu Tao... essentially everyone who tried to press for Zhang Jiaos arrest before he became obviously powerful (though I suppose it might be considered obvious anyway). Also, I'll second Lu Qiang for the suggestion of granting amnesty. There's no telling how many lives he saved, and how many would-be rebels gave up their arms because of this. It's hard to stay mad at a government that will up and say "Treason? We'll let you off this time, no questions asked."

[Ma Su]

Can I just steal HH's answers and pretend they were my own? 

Interesting and good perspective