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[Humble Hero]

I was just flipping through the Koei art work, and realized that I was so familiar with it that whenever i heard the names elsewhere, I would be able to match them with their RTK portraits as if they were identification tags.

Seeings as I've come to accept these portraits as "them" I wonder - how accurate do you think these portraits are? I'm less interested in elaborate armors and such (like on Taishi Ci) and more curious just about the faces. Do you think (or is there a reason to believe) they got them right? Or is it just a shot in the dark.

[Nick]

I was just flipping through the Koei art work, and realized that I was so familiar with it that whenever i heard the names elsewhere, I would be able to match them with their RTK portraits as if they were identification tags.

Seeings as I've come to accept these portraits as "them" I wonder - how accurate do you think these portraits are? I'm less interested in elaborate armors and such (like on Taishi Ci) and more curious just about the faces. Do you think (or is there a reason to believe) they got them right? Or is it just a shot in the dark.

I would assume that almost all of them are shots in the dark.  Even Liu Bei, who would be one of those you would expect to have the greatest possibility of being correct, is so often displayed as looking young.  Yet, he would have had portraits made of himself once he was more established and in a position of greater power... which would mean he was well aged.  
Beyond that, most of the KOEI pictures look more "western" than is probably realisitic, and even further, if you try to find artwork depicting the historical figures, I doubt you could find anything on any of them that was done during their own life times... with Cao Cao being the only exception that I am aware of.

I think it is far more likely that each is more in line with the cultural image of that person (Guan Yu immediately comes to mind), and though it is completely possible that some of them are in fact close to the historic look of the person, I don't think there is any way to know what anyone actually looked like, let alone know how close KOEI's art comes to it (again, excluding Cao Cao).

The same can be said for every statue made of them, as far as I have ever seen.  They were all made centuries later.

[Humble Hero]

Is there any particular reason why there are no statues, portraits or depictions from their time period? I can understand that naturally not everyone will have something made in their image but one would expect at least the three leaders and perhaps their close relatives/top generals would get something in their honor.

[GuanXing-Shu]

This would be my guess, but either any portraits taken of the prominent figures of the time have decayed and are no longer usable (besides, as mentioned, Cao Cao) or were destroyed. For example, think of what art, portraits, ETC of the Han Dynasty could have been destroyed by the sack of Dong Zhou in Luo Yang.

Again, this is just my guess. :/

[Humble Hero]

That makes sense, but even still there is a drastic lack of visual relics. I would understand perhaps if Wu and Shu were both devoid of such things - perhaps looted and ruined during the final days of their empires. But it still strikes me as odd, if something of Cao Cao survived then surely there would be perhaps a portrait or statue of Zhang Liao? Or Cao Pi and his descendants?

I dunno, I guess I'm just slightly miffed that they've physically faded from existence - a petty gripe I know but not being able to put the deeds to a face kind of diminishes their memory, for me at least.

[Yue Fei]

Main reason you don't find portraits of them, is the same reason you don't find portraits of many people throughout history. The people who get them have to be exceptionally significant. And even then they're not frequently even from the same time period as when the person lived.

Obviously there was certain paintings, and statues made, but the artwork of the period is generally limited to being usable items. Candle stick holders, pottery jugs, wine vessels, etc. There are some statues which are purely for artistic reasons (or in some cases burial reasons), and there are some few surviving paintings depicting domestic life, but otherwise it's fairly void. 

All of the portraits that you do find of these individuals (and there are actually a number of them), are from the Ming and Qing dynasties. And these are simply of the more well known, or accomplished individuals. You will be unlikely to find a Ming or Qing dynasty portrait of Guo Yuan for example. You would however be able to find ones of Guan Yu and Zhao Yun, Cao Cao, Xu Huang, Sun Ce, Taishi Ci, Lu Bu, even Yuan Shu.

I would say most of their appearances, are at least somewhat modeled after these block print portraits. The closest (especially as of earlier games), would be Guan Yu and Lu Bu. In fact Lu Bu is almost always depicted in the same way, in every medium he's shown in (there are rare examples of when he's not, which is why it's so noticeable though. Dynasty Warriors 6 and 7 being notable examples, as well as the new Romance of the Three Kingdoms television series).

[Nick]

All of the portraits that you do find of these individuals (and there are actually a number of them), are from the Ming and Qing dynasties. And these are simply of the more well known, or accomplished individuals. You will be unlikely to find a Ming or Qing dynasty portrait of Guo Yuan for example. You would however be able to find ones of Guan Yu and Zhao Yun, Cao Cao, Xu Huang, Sun Ce, Taishi Ci, Lu Bu, even Yuan Shu.

I would say most of their appearances, are at least somewhat modeled after these block print portraits. The closest (especially as of earlier games), would be Guan Yu and Lu Bu. In fact Lu Bu is almost always depicted in the same way, in every medium he's shown in (there are rare examples of when he's not, which is why it's so noticeable though. Dynasty Warriors 6 and 7 being notable examples, as well as the new Romance of the Three Kingdoms television series).

Again, though, it is impossible to know if these portraits are at all accurate.  Most don't even have a known author, and in those cases it is practically impossible to nail down the date the painting was made, or if it was made using any sort of source material beyond the novel (which is where the majority of the painters drew their inspiration from).

Many of these portraits created the cultural image of these characters, and many of the interpretations of the characters made generations later (such as with KOEI) follow those ancient drawings because of that cultural image.  Kinda like how we all picture George Washington or Abe Lincoln to same way throughout every medium.

[Yue Fei]

Again, though, it is impossible to know if these portraits are at all accurate.  Most don't even have a known author, and in those cases it is practically impossible to nail down the date the painting was made, or if it was made using any sort of source material beyond the novel (which is where the majority of the painters drew their inspiration from).

Many of these portraits created the cultural image of these characters, and many of the interpretations of the characters made generations later (such as with KOEI) follow those ancient drawings because of that cultural image.  Kinda like how we all picture George Washington or Abe Lincoln to same way throughout every medium.

Oh of course, it's in fact very probable that they're just hyped of interpretations of what they're thought to look like. The paintings themselves are dated, and they are from the Ming and Qing (which by nature rules them out as being accurate just from the length of time).

Something important to note, is that was even done in contemporary periods. The general Yue Fei, is always depicted as being tall, a strong jawline, and having facial hair. The official portrait of him (and other generals of the Song), and this is known to be an official portrait, has him being short, and slightly round face.

What Yue Fei is presumed to look like.

What Yue Fei actually looked like.

It's something that seems to be inconceivable to have a general not look imposing, or fearsome, or at least looking very strong. The depiction of Yue Fei in his temple, is quite majestic looking, and brings to mind what most people think a general looks like. His actual portrait however, he looks like a portly and weak person. Quite interesting how this comes about, to say the least.

[Nick]

It is easy to determine the general era a painting was done in, due to techniques and styles, to be sure.  I wasn't questioning that they were from the Ming or Qing.  I was mearly pointing out that there is a severe lack of data when it comes to a majority of the art.  My comment about not being able to tell the date referred to a more specific dating, rather then a rough "within 50 years or so" that most have been given... and that was only made to further my point that we don't have any idea what source the artists used, since we don't know exactly who made them or exactly when.  Trying to play "which portrait came first" and "who copied from who" becomes shoddy guess work at best much of the time.

[Yue Fei]

It is easy to determine the general era a painting was done in, due to techniques and styles, to be sure.  I wasn't questioning that they were from the Ming or Qing.  I was mearly pointing out that there is a severe lack of data when it comes to a majority of the art.  My comment about not being able to tell the date referred to a more specific dating, rather then a rough "within 50 years or so" that most have been given... and that was only made to further my point that we don't have any idea what source the artists used, since we don't know exactly who made them or exactly when.  Trying to play "which portrait came first" and "who copied from who" becomes shoddy guess work at best much of the time.

Of course, although in this case I don't think it matters too much as to the "exact" date of the portraits. They really only show up in the Ming and Qing, so trying to see "who copied from who" ends up just being a lesson in futility.

Although it's not surprising that the portraits show up in these dynasties, seeing as how that's when the novel really began to expand in terms of popularity.

[Humble Hero]

A thought does occur. I remember a ways back when I read the SGZ on Yu Jin, it mentioned that on the walls of Cao Cao's mausoleum there was a painting of Guan Yu being victorious over an angry Pang De and a surrendering Yu Jin. This would have been painted at some time between Cao Cao's death and the return of Yu Jin - meaning the artist would likely have known what the three generals looked like to be able to paint them.

Several questions arise from this. Would paintings like these be common for mausoleums? Would an important enough person have paintings of significant events in their tombs? And what exactly was the culture surrounding what went in to tombs? Is it likely that some candlestick holders or wine vessels (made in a persons image) would be in the tomb?

[Nick]

A thought does occur. I remember a ways back when I read the SGZ on Yu Jin, it mentioned that on the walls of Cao Cao's mausoleum there was a painting of Guan Yu being victorious over an angry Pang De and a surrendering Yu Jin. This would have been painted at some time between Cao Cao's death and the return of Yu Jin - meaning the artist would likely have known what the three generals looked like to be able to paint them.

Several questions arise from this. Would paintings like these be common for mausoleums? Would an important enough person have paintings of significant events in their tombs? And what exactly was the culture surrounding what went in to tombs? Is it likely that some candlestick holders or wine vessels (made in a persons image) would be in the tomb?

The short answer is, no one knows where those tombs are, and fake ones are found all the time which complicate it further.  They are so old and the techniques were still ancient... its possible that none of them survived.  Just a few years ago they claimed to have found Cao Cao's, only to discover that it was a hoax.  Also, there is a tomb that its discoverer claims belonged to Diao Chan.... yeah..

[scholar]

Also, there is a tomb that its discoverer claims belonged to Diao Chan.... yeah..

Well, I think that one is just to grab the media's attention as few people are aware that Diao Chan is an utter fabrication.

[Nick]

How convenient that I should be reminded of this thread just days after talking about it here on KOEI.

http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19085
http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18532

Again, remember that almost all of the depictions were done after their deaths, so their accuracy is somewhat (completely?) dubious, as is the authenticity of the tombs themselves.  For example, one of them is the temple where "Zhuge Liang caused the winds to change".... so yeah...

[Armee]

I know this is an old thread, but something happened the other day...and this is the first time reading that come together in a funny way.

I bought the newest series of RTK and started watching and my missus got interested so we had to start from the beginning.  Anyway, bout midway through the series we went to get Chinese food.  We're in Australia by the way....

While we're waiting for our order my wife says to me:  Isn't that Guan Yu?  I thought she musta been loopy or somethin.  Anyway, I said "Where?" and she pointed above the counter where we placed our order, and sure as anything...there was a small shrine with a statue of Guan Yu in it.  How strange is that?