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What If "Thread"
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Topic: What If "Thread" (Read 88605 times)
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Humble Hero
Jester of the Three Kingdoms
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Re: What If "Thread"
«
Reply #915 on:
November 16, 2011, 01:02:29 pm »
Like Jefe said, a threat to Shu - highly unlikely. His attention would better be turned to Wei. Simply for the same reason that Wu was so hard to conquer. For Lu Meng to attack Shu, he would be taking his men out of their natural element (the rivers) and attacking Shu on their home ground, their naturally defensible mountains. Even Lu Xun, who is hailed by some as a superior strategist to Lu Meng knew to retreat and only engage Shu on flat plains because it was simply too difficult to fight them in the rough terrain.
Also, any further incursions Lu Meng could attempt to make in to Shu would see pressure come down on them from Wei, especially if he marched before Cao Pi declared himself emperor.
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Gray Riders
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Re: What If "Thread"
«
Reply #916 on:
November 16, 2011, 04:12:12 pm »
Lu Meng's own biography has him submitting a plan to invade Xiangyang, but it mentions stationing Pan Zhang at Baidi. It's possible this meant to use him to guard against incursions, but it seems to suggest he wanted them to occupy at least part of Yi.
Recall that at the time he probably expected it would be all-out war with Shu after taking Jing. Once the idea of the second alliance comes up, I'm sure he's intelligent enough to support the idea so he can focus on his Wei invasion, which seemed to be the main part of his plan, along with how to hold Jing.
So if he lived I suspect he'd mainly be used in the invasion against Wei, rather than trying to invade Yi. Shu would technically be in trouble, though, in that Lu Meng gives Wu a much better chance at taking land from Wei.
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El Jefe
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Re: What If "Thread"
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Reply #917 on:
November 16, 2011, 07:42:24 pm »
Quote from: Boydie on November 16, 2011, 12:48:41 pm
From what I've read and other peoples views too, Lu Meng was keen in expanding into Shu territory. Plus a healthy Lu Meng was a far better battle strategist than any Shu officer at the time could offer. (Again, learned this from sources and people on this board.) So I don't see how he wouldn't be a major threat to Shu.
That's all well and good, but the only major difference I see is that it's a possibility Lu Meng is defending against the Shu invasion in 222 as opposed to Lu Xun, if he hasn't already started in against Wei by then. I'm sure Lu Meng is just as capable of pulling off an upset, so nothing much changes there.
The real bonus is that, if Lu Meng lives for a while longer, that means Wu has a really top-notch offensive commander for that much longer. So if Liu Bei still dies when he does or comes to his senses, thus allowing the alliance to be reinstated, I think it actually bodes poorly for Wei...
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Humble Hero
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Re: What If "Thread"
«
Reply #918 on:
November 16, 2011, 09:26:03 pm »
I see no problem for Wei. It simply delays the inevitable. By the incident in Jing, it was game over, and the North had become the winners of the affair. It was just a matter of waiting for the little guys to huff until they were out of puff before declaring a total victory (of course, "The North" was someone different by the time Wu fell, but Wu still fell none the less)
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El Jefe
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Re: What If "Thread"
«
Reply #919 on:
November 17, 2011, 04:00:09 am »
Dunno...while Wei still had plenty of wiggle room, Lu Meng and Zhuge Liang coordinating an attack plan may have turned out better. But I don't know much about the joint attacks they launched other than that Wu was dispatched and communication wasn't that hot. Wu's biggest problem was that even if they gained ground, they couldn't hold it. Same with Shu. Lu Meng was aware of this - I remember reading some talk about his feelings on Xuzhou - so I'd like to think he would think of something better than what historically happened, but his claim to fame was a well-devised sneak attack against a brash Guan Yu. He would've been a bit of a wild card for that.
However, I don't believe for a moment that they could've defeated Wei outright. They just might have gained a little more territory before things reached stasis.
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Gray Riders
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Re: What If "Thread"
«
Reply #920 on:
November 17, 2011, 07:29:26 am »
Quote from: Humble Hero on November 16, 2011, 09:26:03 pm
I see no problem for Wei. It simply delays the inevitable. By the incident in Jing, it was game over, and the North had become the winners of the affair. It was just a matter of waiting for the little guys to huff until they were out of puff before declaring a total victory (of course, "The North" was someone different by the time Wu fell, but Wu still fell none the less)
Almost nothing is inevitable, especially in war; there are so many things that could happen and result in a northern defeat. A foreign invasion, a very nasty epidemic (think "black death in europe" bad) that doesn't hit Shu or Wu, major corruption, civil war, etc. Sure, these things could happen to Shu or Wu but they could also happen to Wei/Jin. More likely, a Wei attack that goes disastrously wrong again, like the failed invasion of Shu.
Basically, barring major problems, Shu could have held if not for Jiang Wei and Huang Hao. If Shu holds, Wu can hold. If they can hold, fate can give them a chance to win. Lu Meng living isn't a "Wu wins!" event, but he gives them about the best odds they could have after the Yuans were defeated.
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GuanXing-Shu
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Re: What If "Thread"
«
Reply #921 on:
February 08, 2012, 06:11:14 pm »
What if Liu Yu became emperor? (There you go guys
)
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Humble Hero
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Re: What If "Thread"
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Reply #922 on:
February 08, 2012, 06:46:25 pm »
Then Gongsun Zan committed treason and regicide! I've actually been really curious about this for some time now. Liu Yu was a wonderful person but a terrible warlord. The major things that I would need to know is if Emperor Liu Yu would be able to maintain his independence, and if not, would he have enough clout to directly influence his handlers (I'm thinking most likely Yuan Shao). Or, after the whole Dong Zhuo affair is settled, would he simply be replaced by another? Also, how does this affect Yuan Shu's attempted ascension? There are so many variables I want answers to. My brain craves them >.<
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scholar
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Re: What If "Thread"
«
Reply #923 on:
February 08, 2012, 07:26:51 pm »
Quote from: Humble Hero on February 08, 2012, 06:46:25 pm
Then Gongsun Zan committed treason and regicide! I've actually been really curious about this for some time now. Liu Yu was a wonderful person but a terrible warlord. The major things that I would need to know is if Emperor Liu Yu would be able to maintain his independence, and if not, would he have enough clout to directly influence his handlers (I'm thinking most likely Yuan Shao). Or, after the whole Dong Zhuo affair is settled, would he simply be replaced by another? Also, how does this affect Yuan Shu's attempted ascension? There are so many variables I want answers to. My brain craves them >.<
Yuan Shao at the time was still Han Fu's subordinate, and while he was a prestigious warlord he couldn't establish himself as dominant without favorable circumstances (Like Gongsun Zan running Amok).
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He Xing
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Re: What If "Thread"
«
Reply #924 on:
February 11, 2012, 05:01:47 pm »
Having just bought and begun playing ROTK 9, I saw that there was a scenario that set up a situation where the plot to remove Cao Cao from power (the one involving Dong Cheng and Liu Bei, among others) succeeds.
I am curious, if the plot had succeeded, and Cao Cao is removed, what would be the repercussions?
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Re: What If "Thread"
«
Reply #925 on:
February 25, 2012, 02:27:56 pm »
Cao Cao was the glue by which the fledgling state in the central plains was held together, should it have succeeded it is likely the state would fall apart. That being said, it is possible that another influential minister, maybe even Cao Cao's slayer, would be able to assume Cao's position and preventing the collapse of the state.
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History is... amazing, but it is also tragic. It is a story of never ending heroism, deceitfulness, wonder, pain, and tragedy. It is an unfinished epic, an unsolved mystery. There is so much we do not know, and there is so much we have yet to learn.
King of Ba Shu
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Re: What If "Thread"
«
Reply #926 on:
February 28, 2012, 09:11:57 pm »
What if Jiang Wei and Zhong Hui had succeeded in tricking Sima Zhao that Deng Ai was rebelling and Zhong took control of Deng's forces in an effort to have his own rebellion?
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A-Dou
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Re: What If "Thread"
«
Reply #927 on:
February 29, 2012, 06:49:10 am »
Quote from: King of Ba Shu on February 28, 2012, 09:11:57 pm
What if Jiang Wei and Zhong Hui had succeeded in tricking Sima Zhao that Deng Ai was rebelling and Zhong took control of Deng's forces in an effort to have his own rebellion?
I assume under the circumstances, Wei Guan is killed somewhere in this scenario because otherwise the Deng troops probably wouldn't join in. I think it depends how very quickly they can secure Hanzhong and defend it. The rebels get it first and Jin swears, launches an assault and hopes they can get lucky again. Probably beaten back and waits the opportunity. Both men are unpopular and may fall out amongst themselves, Wu will also be better prepared to take advantage of said fall out.
If the Sima's get hold of Hanzhong first, the rebels are in trouble. As long as Jin keeps the supply lines free, which admittedly with the Qiang rebels may be a considerable problem, they can raid into Shu and take advantage of said unpopularity/splits.
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