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[jschult5]

I think you misunderstood what adia68 was trying to say rather then his arguing the game didn't need reform.

Nope.  Didn't miss it.  I am saying the game is beyond simple reform.  At this point, we need a complete overhaul.

[adia68]

OK, let me put it this way.  Karate and Tae Kwon Do both have similar kicks, they have front kicks, side kicks, and so on.  They are from different regions, but maybe they are close on the same side of the world.  Here is the interesting part:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcQItjm1VW0

In this video it looks like he is showing a push kick, front kick, side kick, round house, and something similar to a reverse round house.  So a martial art on the opposite side of the world came up with similar techniques... only difference is the stance... dance... something.

The point is, there is only so much you can do with a punch, kick, or weapon.  With bladed weapons it usually comes down to stab or slice.  Now you can say 'my technique is different than yours because I am wearing a funny hat' or 'because my attack was 1 degree higher', but in the end you are still going to have the same basic movements no matter what stance they are using.

Now this is ESPECIALLY true when you look at the different kingdoms of Wei, Wu, and Shu.  Why would these have very similar styles?  Because less than one hundred years prior, they were all Han!
[/quote]
(jshult5 pg 3)
LOL lu bu in a bikini XD thats just wrong on so many levels

i agree with your above statement, there is only so much you can do with a punch kick and weapon. However i dont think clones justifies this as clones are almost exactly identical. As seen in dw, the differences are their musou and EX. Also, even if moves are similar, i do believe that there is enough techniques to satisfy most if not all the dw roster. Even during the Han, there couldve been different forms of the same weapon. Of course you are right here when you say that there is only so much you can do. However i think there is enough that you can do with all the dw weapons to differentiate between character move sets. Also just like now, im sure there was editations to martial styles back then. Constantly throughout time, there are people editing a certain martial arts to a more self-satisfaction kinda of thing, thus creating new martial arts, which brings similarity between a few. Though, lol, how much can you do with just a kick, punch and a weapon. XD in the end, they have that common root(s). How one handles a certain weapon can only be so close to another. However everyone wields or fights differently even if they study under the same exact teacher, they may be similar but they will be different in a way.

im not saying your wrong or anything, i just think that there is enough moves and techniques to satisfy a roster.

Yes, you can be wrong!  How does releasing the same game over and over build a fan base? (jshult5 pg 3)
new things can persuade new comers. I understand that dw7 is pretty far in the series as it is, but there will always be people getting introduced to the game through recommendation.
i never said if it is any more popular, im just saying that koei MAY think that theres always a possibility for new comers. im not Koei and that is why i dont know.
I think they want the game to remain easy access to everyone because of my above opinion. like i said i can be wrong, and im most likely wrong, however, im just stating my opinion regardless of the odds against it.

however i agree with you with making dw more brutal but not god of war or gears of war brutal. I would also love the addition of blood and gore, but honestly, im satisfied. But since ninja gaiden is also koei's now, i think that they can do a fairly good job with blood and gore.

[jschult5]

LOL lu bu in a bikini XD thats just wrong on so many levels

...

im not saying your wrong or anything, i just think that there is enough moves and techniques to satisfy a roster.

So what if there are?  Look at Street Fighter 2!  Ken and Ryu were exactly the same and there were only 8 playable characters!  Best fighting game ever; not a big deal.

new things can persuade new comers. I understand that dw7 is pretty far in the series as it is, but there will always be people getting introduced to the game through recommendation.
i never said if it is any more popular, im just saying that koei MAY think that theres always a possibility for new comers. im not Koei and that is why i dont know.
I think they want the game to remain easy access to everyone because of my above opinion. like i said i can be wrong, and im most likely wrong, however, im just stating my opinion regardless of the odds against it.

however i agree with you with making dw more brutal but not god of war or gears of war brutal. I would also love the addition of blood and gore, but honestly, im satisfied. But since ninja gaiden is also koei's now, i think that they can do a fairly good job with blood and gore.

Most gamers have probably tried DW by now.  No significant number of new people are going to enter the market by recommendation because on Koei's own forum some of the old players are looking like this:

I only see 2 options:

Change everything or cancel it. Same game over and over again. Its like FIFA but FIFA is more appealing with its online play.

Koei should know this, but they don't.  We need change!  And NOT Obama's change... which didn't change much....

Politicians.

[Ma Su]

Can we keep politics out of the thread? Or criticisms of a whole profession?

[Sazac]

Maybe I'm alone here, but I don't see the need for an entirely new game with the old name. Frankly, I'd rather them stop then calling something completely different the same game. Also,very few games ever really change completely in a series. The difference between what Dynasty Warriors does and say, Assassin's Creed, GTA, Uncharted, Sly Cooper or any other game is that Dynasty Warriors has a LOT more games. That means that the majority of fans like the game for what it is, in such a way that the game has lasted for the twenty-some iterations that it has remained profitable. Yes, they've added less then any of the aforementioned games have, and I'm all for expanding the gameplay, but the core gameplay has always remained the same. Changing a game's core is a poor business move, a poor design choice, and fails to change anyone but the fans' opinions of it. Case in point: Dynasty Warriors 6.

[Rivus]

Changing a game's core is a poor business move, a poor design choice, and fails to change anyone but the fans' opinions of it.

You're right, but Koei does not change enough of the gameplay to justify as many rehashes and spin-offs that they're currently making. There is less and less reason for a fan to return to the series. Unless there is some serious additions to Dynasty Warriors 8, I will definitely not buy it.

Also, this is important

Rehash Warriors 7: Extreme Boogaloo

[sunjian]

You're right, but Koei does not change enough of the gameplay to justify as many rehashes and spin-offs that they're currently making. There is less and less reason for a fan to return to the series. Unless there is some serious additions to Dynasty Warriors 8, I will definitely not buy it.

Also adding that the DW games are not worth full price. I haven't played XL since I have the Xbox but I did play DW6E.

I got DW6E free and felt like someone owed me something.

[jschult5]

Maybe I'm alone here, but I don't see the need for an entirely new game with the old name. Frankly, I'd rather them stop then calling something completely different the same game. Also,very few games ever really change completely in a series. The difference between what Dynasty Warriors does and say, Assassin's Creed, GTA, Uncharted, Sly Cooper or any other game is that Dynasty Warriors has a LOT more games. That means that the majority of fans like the game for what it is, in such a way that the game has lasted for the twenty-some iterations that it has remained profitable. Yes, they've added less then any of the aforementioned games have, and I'm all for expanding the gameplay, but the core gameplay has always remained the same. Changing a game's core is a poor business move, a poor design choice, and fails to change anyone but the fans' opinions of it. Case in point: Dynasty Warriors 6.

I am not suggesting they get away from the whole hack-and-slash thing, but the difference between those other games and DW is that they had the option of completely changing the story and the setting of the games.  Even GTA doesn't use the same main character now.  Dynasty Warriors cannot do that.  It has nothing to do with the number of games because DW changes one little thing and releases a new game, here are some ideas for free Koei:

add things characters can eat:  DW: Iron Stomach
add controllable siege weapons:  DW: Eleventy Awesome Bam Bam Box
make Lu Bu's hair blue:  DW: Grease Lightning

I have more ideas Koei, but those will cost you!

Oh and your idea of business is a little flawed.  The idea is to become more and more profitable, and not to be profitable by running the product into the ground.

Can we keep politics out of the thread? Or criticisms of a whole profession?

That is the exact problem!  Good job, Ma Su, for bringing this to everyone's attention!  'Professional Politicians' are the scourge of the world.  Don't worry about anyone seeing this though; this thread will be censored soon enough....

[Ma Su]

Trying to stop a potential argument before it starts or trying to stop statements that make people feeling uncomfortable due to their profession is a problem? Ok, you can feel that way if you want.

None the less I still request you leave your politician-hatred outside game threads.

[Sazac]

Oh and your idea of business is a little flawed.  The idea is to become more and more profitable, and not to be profitable by running the product into the ground.

Nothing lasts forever. What you fail to see is that if Dynasty Warriors dies, it will be a part of it's natural life cycle. I don't want to see that happen, as the game still has potential, but it's preferable to seeing the game be run into the ground by "Selling out".

Here's the main flaw of your argument: You believe non-fans of Dynasty Warriors will come around in some grand epiphany and say, "Hey, this game I've been making fun of and hating for the past decade? It's not that bad." Few people are willing to change their mind, especially when what is essentially an entire culture based on hating the thing in question has been formed. People like to hate Dynasty Warriors, and what is profitable for most will not be the same for what is profitable for Dynasty Warriors. You have to know your fan base.


And again, I'm not advocating keeping the game exactly the same for all time. I'm just saying Dynasty Warriors has to evolve as Dynasty Warriors, not as "Generic Uber Hack-and-Slash Forever". Koei knows their fan base, even though you may disagree with the majority.

[jschult5]

Trying to stop a potential argument before it starts or trying to stop statements that make people feeling uncomfortable due to their profession is a problem? Ok, you can feel that way if you want.

None the less I still request you leave your politician-hatred outside game threads.

Haha!  Just one final question!  Who here is a politician?!  Don't answer that!  I strike it from the record!

Nothing lasts forever. What you fail to see is that if Dynasty Warriors dies, it will be a part of it's natural life cycle. I don't want to see that happen, as the game still has potential, but it's preferable to seeing the game be run into the ground by "Selling out".

We are not talking about a species here.  We are talking about a game.  It only dies if you let it.  I can think of several other series that should have been given up a long time ago but haven't died like Tomb Raider, Sonic the Hedgehog, and Duke Nukem.  But I can also think of several series that were close to being in this category until something changed like Resident Evil and Need for Speed.  Need for Speed in particular was almost run to the ground because they were selling out.

Here's the main flaw of your argument: You believe non-fans of Dynasty Warriors will come around in some grand epiphany and say, "Hey, this game I've been making fun of and hating for the past decade? It's not that bad." Few people are willing to change their mind, especially when what is essentially an entire culture based on hating the thing in question has been formed. People like to hate Dynasty Warriors, and what is profitable for most will not be the same for what is profitable for Dynasty Warriors. You have to know your fan base.

What are you talking about?  Who hates Dynasty Warriors?  No one I know hates it, but they aren't going to buy a new game that they've already played in the previous installment or have little interest in.  Here is an example:  I played GTA 2, and I did not like it.  I borrowed it from a friend, played it for an hour, and gave it back to him the next day.  When GTA 3 came out, I played it with a friend who had rented it and I bought it the next day.

Do you know how to counteract this imaginary 'culture' that you are referring to?  Make a game that people want to play.  That is it.  It is that simple.  So what you wrongly perceive to be the main flaw in my argument simply shows your ignorance.  Did you ever stop to think that people 'hating on' the game simply don't like the game?  Not liking something is far different from hating it.  Seriously, I don't like tomatoes.  I would never buy a tomato for myself.  But I don't hate them.  As soon as tomatoes come out with a product that I like, I am more likely to buy it.  Again, this is fairly simple business.

And again, I'm not advocating keeping the game exactly the same for all time. I'm just saying Dynasty Warriors has to evolve as Dynasty Warriors, not as "Generic Uber Hack-and-Slash Forever". Koei knows their fan base, even though you may disagree with the majority.

You must be blind!  Dynasty Warriors is devolving into "Generic Uber Hack-and-Slash Forever."  Oh, and since when do you speak for the majority?  Let me give some quotes FROM FANS:

You're right, but Koei does not change enough of the gameplay to justify as many rehashes and spin-offs that they're currently making. There is less and less reason for a fan to return to the series. Unless there is some serious additions to Dynasty Warriors 8, I will definitely not buy it.

Also, this is important

Rehash Warriors 7: Extreme Boogaloo

Also adding that the DW games are not worth full price. I haven't played XL since I have the Xbox but I did play DW6E.

I got DW6E free and felt like someone owed me something.

They have got to have more to do than tell the same tired story over and over.  How many Chi Bis can we have to start the wind and get the fire attack going?  The gameplay has got to be amped up with more to do.  They have a ton of characters, but half of them are lifeless with no part in the game.  

[Nick]

A few things...

First, there is a significant number of people who have never played Dynasty Warriors.  Also, a surprisingly large number who have never even heard of it.  I see this from personal experiance... as I have asked a majority of my friends at one point or another to play it with me and they had never heard of it before. I have personally introduced at least 8 people that I can think of to the game, and each one of them have bought at least one, if not more, of the following DW games.  The 8th person was someone I showed dw 6 literally two days ago, who had never heard of them before. 

Second, Jschult, I am a politician.  Let's not turn this into a flame war and accept that some of us actually want to make a positive difference, even if the public image makes that sound impossible.

Third, speaking in terms of the martial arts and the number of moves available in move sets, lets not forget that there are virtually infinite different combinations of weapons, styles, attributes, elements, etc.  So, even if you just give 4 different characters no weapons and just punches and kicks, you can give them each different style of punches.  More so, you can have them do different things.  One punch causes a fire explosion for the fire unarmed dude.  One freezes the enemies.  Kicks can cause them to be stunned (kicking in the knee), or blow them across the map (straight kick).  Even if you give the same character the same 6 moves, but change the power levels of them and put them in different places in the chain or a different triangle number (c1 versus c5), the cloning problem becomes smaller, if not completely removed.

Finally, I stand by my earlier statement.  DW8 would be the best DW ever if they keep the musou mode from 7, but allow you to choose different characters within the level.  For example, at Yellow Turban on Shu, you can pick between Liu Bei, Guan Yu, or Zhang Fei, because they were all there.  Most importantly, player 2 can pick one as well, and play with you in the campaign.  There are absolutely 0 levels that wouldn't have obvious choices.  Guan Yu's 7 gates has Guan ping as an option.  Sun Ce's death has Da Qiao as an option.

[jschult5]

First, there is a significant number of people who have never played Dynasty Warriors.  Also, a surprisingly large number who have never even heard of it.  I see this from personal experiance... as I have asked a majority of my friends at one point or another to play it with me and they had never heard of it before. I have personally introduced at least 8 people that I can think of to the game, and each one of them have bought at least one, if not more, of the following DW games.  The 8th person was someone I showed dw 6 literally two days ago, who had never heard of them before. 

Same here, and most the people I introduce to the series are willing to play it.  None are willing to buy.  Needs something new!

Second, Jschult, I am a politician.  Let's not turn this into a flame war and accept that some of us actually want to make a positive difference, even if the public image makes that sound impossible.

You're a politician?  Great!  Then you know exactly what I am talking about!  Or you should.

Third, speaking in terms of the martial arts and the number of moves available in move sets, lets not forget that there are virtually infinite different combinations of weapons, styles, attributes, elements, etc.  So, even if you just give 4 different characters no weapons and just punches and kicks, you can give them each different style of punches.  More so, you can have them do different things.  One punch causes a fire explosion for the fire unarmed dude.  One freezes the enemies.  Kicks can cause them to be stunned (kicking in the knee), or blow them across the map (straight kick).  Even if you give the same character the same 6 moves, but change the power levels of them and put them in different places in the chain or a different triangle number (c1 versus c5), the cloning problem becomes smaller, if not completely removed.

'Virtually infinite'?  Not at all.  But in the end, clones aren't a big issue.  If you are making the game thought up some really cool looking maneuver, do you want to use it once?  Probably not.  It is irrelevant.

[Nick]

I agree that cloning isn't that large of a problem, but regardless... virtually limitless is an accurate statement.

Take the characters and movesets we have now... roughly what, 60?  Over 100 in Warriors Orochi 3.  How many are clones, or near clones?  Lets be super overly generous and say half.  So, 50 different characters with unique movesets.  They have what.. 12 moves in the typical combo? (6 square, 6 triangle?)  So, you take one person, and you modify their chain in any number of different ways... you can take that 12 move moveset, and expand it to become something like 144 different move sets?  Sure, they are going to be awfully similar, but not exactly.  Further, how many different elements or subtypes can you think to add?  Slow but strong, fast but weak, medium, fire, lightning, water, ice, wind, poision, earth, explosion, light, dark, psychic, ... you take all 144 different movesets and you make one for each of those, and that's 2160 different movesets.  Now, lets be a little crazy... lets do that same thing, but for each and every character with a unique moveset! 108,000 movesets!  Now, something even crazier! We can even mix and match between the movesets themselves!  108,000 squared or something ridiculous... and now, we add... SOMETHING NEW!  OMG!  Now we have to redo all the math and get 19047305 different movesets!

And so on....

[Ma Su]

Anyone involved or wishing to get involved in the political debate, please read the bottom of my post.

You're a politician?  Great!  Then you know exactly what I am talking about!  Or you should.

Well there are answers to that but quite how many would end up an accidental flame to a lot of people and so bring the problems I was trying to avoid.... My post would involve gratitude to free health care, disabled and homosexual rights and other things those guys have brought which would avoid that. It's the other elements of my argument on the subject that might make people unhappy. Might I suggest Chris Mullins books on his middle or latter years in parliament and you might see where I would go with it?

Still this isn't the thread to try to discuss the merits of politicians or for us to indulge in the type of hatred that categorizes thousands of people as bad. I dislike it as history has shown the dangers of such an attitude. The other reason I ask you to stop is that this forum is meant to be open and comfortable to anyone, regardless of religion, gender, orientation, where they come from, their political views and yes, their professions.

So once again, I ask that you drops this jschultt5.