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Author Topic: The Qing elite VS the Spartan Warriors  (Read 650 times)
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He Xing
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« on: September 26, 2011, 07:33:14 pm »

I have been wondering, how would the Qing elite fair against the Spartan Warriors? Would they be fodder like the lightly armored Persians, or would the Qing elite be able to crush the Spartan warriors?
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Humble Hero
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 11:22:16 pm »

As much as I love China, I have to give it to the Spartans. Every Spartan man has been bred solely for combat for the entirety of his life, has a well crafted spear, a mean sword shaped to maximize effect, but the major victory comes from the shield. Having that full, metallic shield not only gives them essentially an unbreakable defense, but also a second weapon that could cause severe head trauma. On top of all that, a Spartan can just opt to kill you with his hand to hand abilities.

Plus I'm pretty sure the Qing Elite weren't actually all that elite, just some rabble given a pretty title.
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Boydie
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2011, 10:51:52 am »

Spartans warriors are far more elite and better equipped than anything the Qing had. I'd go on to to say (Still unsure of the Qing army.) the Persians had a far more impressive army than the Qing and look what happened at the Battle of Thermopylae...
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Gray Riders

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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2011, 12:33:23 pm »

Assuming the Qingzhou army engages in close combat and they armies are of roughly equal numbers, I'd think the Spartans would win due to their famous skill at arms, though if you add missile weapons I'm not sure how they'd do against Crossbow fire. To be fair, the only battle I know of the Qingzhou army fighting was their failure against Lu Bu so I may be underestimating them.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 12:35:09 pm by Gray Riders » Logged
Yue Fei
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2011, 05:09:49 pm »

You cannot compare an army, with the Spartans.

The Qingzhou army was exactly that, an army. It was composed of cavalry, infantry, and crossbow troops. It was a mobile fighting force, and was effective for envelopment. Even the difference in weapon quality between the two is different.

Cao Cao's Qingzhou army would've been using weapons made via the blast furnace. They're still iron, but they have a fairly good carbon content in them, and can be considered an early form of steel.

Depending on the time period, the Spartans used bronze, or early iron swords which were rather soft. Good for piercing bronze armour, but that's about it. At the time of the Spartans, they did not utilize anything other than bronze or organic armour (i.e. linen or leather, given that the exact composition of linothorax is unknown. Most evidence seems to suggest it was layered linen, but there is also other evidence to say that it was primarily leather, with only a linen facing).

Given the compositions of the army, and the equipment used, I cannot give this to the Spartans. The crossbow alone would decide this engagement.

Also, be careful about what you read of the Spartan shield. It was a good design for its time, but it cannot be compared to weapons of higher quality material.

The crossbow bolt shape is also important to note. It was of the exact same cross-section as that of a later weapon designed to pierce and go through the gaps of some of the most finely crafted European plate armour available. That weapon being the estoc, which had a diamond or triangular cross-section. Han crossbow bolts of this time were also diamond or triangular in cross-section. They were also of superior construction to most arrows made at the time, given that they were made with a tang method rather than having a socket that the arrow shaft would fit into.

These were sturdy projectile weapons designed to make deep wounds, and to pierce mild steel armour.

Poison was also heavily utilized on crossbow bolts, because the Chinese were making armour that could withstand their own crossbows. Every wound had to count.

The crossbows would likely cause significant damage to the open faced Spartans wearing their common Pylos helmet. They can raise their shields, but those would likely be pierced, given that they were made of a couple of millimeters of wood, and covered with a very thin layer of bronze.

If the Spartans are shielding their faces from crossbow fire, that also means their vision is being blocked. They won't see an advancing army.

The Spartans are not invincible, and are not what I would even consider the prime of hoplite warfare. They were easily beaten by an inferior army lead by an excellent general at Leuctra.

Spartans unfortunately for debates like this, have far too many myths made up about them.

The phalanx (Greek and Macedonian) have one very big flaw, and the the age old adage that it's easy to flank. But rather that it only has to be broken in one spot, for the whole formation to fall apart. It doesn't matter if it breaks on the left, right, or centre. It was also very vulnerable when not employed on very flat ground. Greek warfare was very ritualistic in this regards, as the battlefield would normally be planned by both parties in advance.

But again, the phalanx will be undone by high draw weight crossbows with bolts designed for defeating shields and armour.

I suggest if you're interested in learning more about the Spartans, to go to the Roman Army Talk forums. You'll learn quite a lot. Be wary of anyone who plays them up to be better than they were. They were great soldiers for their time, but they are outclassed by more open armies that can either out maneuver them, or simply use concentrated projectile fire on them.
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