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[Ma Su]

I'll admit that I am speaking in a bit if a game bias here, however the point remains that to even be compared to the other kingdoms in terms of the quality of the strategists, you must get your lord to listen to you.  That is the kind of relationship that Cao Cao has with Guo Jia than Jia Xu had with another lord at a critical time in his campaign against Cao Cao.

I think that Wei would be half of what it is remembered historically had Zhang Xiu listened to Jia Xu at that critical juncture where things went down hill, but that is putting the cart before the horse.

On those grounds Fa Zheng is one of the greatest strategists of the age. Yes getting a lord to listen is part of the job, it is where Liu Ye struggled badly till he went insane, but Jia Xu was more often listened to then not.

Jia Xu's plans nearly always worked, he did it for several lords and got them victories when they were struggling. That is what makes him one of the great advisers of the age.

[Yue Fei]

How is he any different than the likes of Ju Shou and Tian Feng?  Once Shao's mind started to slip there was little they could do to get Shao to go along with their advice.  Same deal with Xun.  In no way does it take away from what he was able to accomplish.

At this time, Sun Quan hadn't really gone totally over the edge. He was in decline, but in no way could be compared to Yuan Shao at this point. He didn't want any officials siding with either Sun He or Sun Ba. And he finally settled it by executing both Sun He and Sun Ba.

Also, Sun Quan realized his errors and had Lu Xun's honour restored. This is in no way the same as Yuan Shao with Ju Shou and Tian Feng. Sun Quan realized his mistake and regretted it.

However this isn't much different from Sun Quan throughout his entire life. He was a rather petty individual when it came to things like this. So yes, it does take away from what Lu Xun was able to accomplish.

If you can't get your ruler to listen to you, and then he berates you until the point that you become depressed and ill, and then die. You did something wrong. That's even worse than simply having someone executed.

[Nick]

If you can't get your ruler to listen to you, and then he berates you until the point that you become depressed and ill, and then die. You did something wrong. That's even worse than simply having someone executed.

I disagree wholeheartedly.  Lu Xun may have been 100% in the right, yet there may have been no way to convince Quan of that, because of Quan's mistake.  Sure, getting your ruler to listen to you is a great (and needed skill), but sometimes a person is just unwilling to change their mind, regardless of your ability to convince them.  In this particular case, it isn't like Sun Quan had a history of doing that, so one can hardly blame Lu Xun for staying with him.

I suppose the point im making is, do you consider those people who killed themselves to prove a point to their rulers as failures, or heroes?

Lu Xun may not be that person, but it is roughly the same thing.

[Humble Hero]

Obviously nobody can be listened to 100% of the time. However, if you do such a poor job of convincing the ruler that he sees fit to attack you on a personal level, and you take that attack so deeply that it factors in to your death then you have failed a duty as a strategist.

And with regards to comparing Xun to the suicidees there is one major problem with that.

A person who commits suicide to prove a point does just that. They die, and their death sends out a message.

A person cannot die of illness to prove a point. You cannot make the conscious decision, it is not a premeditated thing. It just... happens. Your death may still prove a point, sure, but it is not of your design and so cannot be credited to the individual.

[Yue Fei]

I disagree wholeheartedly.  Lu Xun may have been 100% in the right, yet there may have been no way to convince Quan of that, because of Quan's mistake.  Sure, getting your ruler to listen to you is a great (and needed skill), but sometimes a person is just unwilling to change their mind, regardless of your ability to convince them.  In this particular case, it isn't like Sun Quan had a history of doing that, so one can hardly blame Lu Xun for staying with him.

Sun Quan definitely had a history of being petty. Repeatedly insulting Lu Su, burning down Zhang Zhao's door, etc. He wasn't exactly the epitome of a kind and gentle ruler.

I suppose the point im making is, do you consider those people who killed themselves to prove a point to their rulers as failures, or heroes?

They're failures. If you give wise council and it is not listened to, the person who refuses it is not worthy of it. Sun Quan was foolish.

"The way of fools seems right to them, but the wise listen to advice."

"Fools show their annoyance at once but the prudent overlook an insult."

[looknohands]

At this time, Sun Quan hadn't really gone totally over the edge. He was in decline, but in no way could be compared to Yuan Shao at this point. He didn't want any officials siding with either Sun He or Sun Ba. And he finally settled it by executing both Sun He and Sun Ba.

In other words, Quan is incapable of naming a successor following the death of Liang, and instead allows for the court to become split amongst various factions that support different heirs...at which point his solution (in which he ignores the sound advice of Lu Xun, no less) is to kill one son and remove the other.  Yup, sounds like a man with a good head on his shoulders.

Also, Sun Quan realized his errors and had Lu Xun's honour restored. This is in no way the same as Yuan Shao with Ju Shou and Tian Feng. Sun Quan realized his mistake and regretted it.

Difference here being that Quan actually lived long enough to be able to regret his decision.  Not to mention the fact that the decision he was regretting was his refusal to listen to Xun's advice- a person's advice being the main thing that were debating here, no less.

However this isn't much different from Sun Quan throughout his entire life. He was a rather petty individual when it came to things like this. So yes, it does take away from what Lu Xun was able to accomplish.

So...because Quan could be a petty jerk to his advisers, that takes away from Xun?  How many advisers can you name that a. lived long, and b. had their lords listen to them in every instance?

If you can't get your ruler to listen to you, and then he berates you until the point that you become depressed and ill, and then die. You did something wrong. That's even worse than simply having someone executed.

...and yet such instances were far from rare.  Do you discredit Xun Yu for taking ill and dying from grief after Cao Cao dismissed his warnings about taking the title of Duke?

An adviser's duty is to provide advice to his lord, even if the advice is something his lord doesn't want to hear.  Xun performed his duty without peer (just go ahead and look at his bio.)

[looknohands]

However, if you do such a poor job of convincing the ruler that he sees fit to attack you on a personal level, and you take that attack so deeply that it factors in to your death then you have failed a duty as a strategist.

Isn't there some sort of saying about leading a horse to water?

A person cannot die of illness to prove a point. You cannot make the conscious decision, it is not a premeditated thing. It just... happens. Your death may still prove a point, sure, but it is not of your design and so cannot be credited to the individual.

You can't make a conscious decision to "give up" on life?  Are you sure about that?  Take a look at nursing homes and homes of the recently widowed.  Any place that you lose your "purpose in life" can easily result in such things...

Sun Quan definitely had a history of being petty. Repeatedly insulting Lu Su, burning down Zhang Zhao's door, etc. He wasn't exactly the epitome of a kind and gentle ruler.

A history of being a jerk to his advisers, yes.  Unwilling to change his mind?  No.  Never before had he completely shut out an adviser such as this, and for absolutely no justifiable reason.

They're failures. If you give wise council and it is not listened to, the person who refuses it is not worthy of it. Sun Quan was foolish.

Yes, he was a fool.  But he also Xun's chosen lord, and Xun chose to remain loyal to him and attempted to offer advice repeatedly until his death.  That in no way takes away from him as an adviser, and everything from Quan as a ruler.

[Nick]

Yeah, what looknohands said.

[Humble Hero]

Isn't there some sort of saying about leading a horse to water?

There is. But I dont remember the saying accounting for "If the horse doesnt drink the water, take it personally and die." My point isnt that he wasn't listened to, I understand that isnt entirely his fault. My point is he let that destroy him.

You can't make a conscious decision to "give up" on life?  Are you sure about that?  Take a look at nursing homes and homes of the recently widowed.  Any place that you lose your "purpose in life" can easily result in such things...

Again that is not a conscious choice. Very few people actually can will themselves to death. More often then not it is their depression that kills them, which while it may be what they wanted, it is not what they chose to do.

[looknohands]

You're overlooking 2 things, though:
1. This was a different time, with different customs.  People such as Lu Xun, Xun Yu and Tian Chou lived for one purpose only: to serve their chosen lord.  Xun and Yu both died of shame at having been cast aside and slandered from their purpose in life.  Chou never forgave himself for the death of Liu Yu and refused all offers of service from Yuan Shao and Cao Cao.
2. Several people are actually mentioned as having done so, among them Yu, Xun and, to a lesser extent, Hua He.
 

[Humble Hero]

I know it is a different time with different customs. But if a lord, particularly one that has a history of being petty can kill you simply with remarks, you are useless as a strategist. You have to be ready to have your work criticized. When you fall off the horse, you're meant to get back on it. By allowing this set back to kill him, he failed his kingdom on this occasion. Dead strategists make poor plans.

I should amend the second half of my argument, as it is not quite what I had hoped to convey. A fault on my part. The original purpose of that argument was that a person who gives up on life and dies of depression is not equatable to someone who commits suicide to prove a point.

A person who commits suicide says "I will now die. This is the point that I hope my death will make." and everything goes according to plan.

A person who dies as a result of depression cannot lay claim to having planned out their death. It is something that is about to happen, whether they want it to or not. Their death may still serve a purpose to the living, but that purpose cannot be credited to them because they died of a natural cause.

The major difference:

If the suicides didnt have anything to prove, they could continue to live well and happy.

If the depressed/ill didnt have anything to prove, they would still die regardless, because it was not their design to die such a way.

[Ma Su]

Filled with vexation and grief. Not remarkably different from all those Empresses who suddenly died of grief or Xun Yu who suddenly died of grief. Or rather, committed suicide (usually pressured) with the histories making the deaths "more respectable" with all the old phrasing.

Sure, strategists get criticized. Lu Xun had been before yet never suddenly died of depression so would he really do so now? Would Sun Quan, who was arresting people for writing to Lu Xun, simply send messages saying things like "You and I: Not friends"?

The writing is that of suicide, seeing men jailed for writing to you and being effectively banished is the kind of thing that seems to prompt sudden deaths of grief, aka suicide. Quan was sending messengers to a guy he refused to see. Reads like suicide to me,

Even if this wasn't a suicide, simply dying shouldn't be held against the man.

[looknohands]

I know it is a different time with different customs. But if a lord, particularly one that has a history of being petty can kill you simply with remarks, you are useless as a strategist. You have to be ready to have your work criticized. When you fall off the horse, you're meant to get back on it. By allowing this set back to kill him, he failed his kingdom on this occasion. Dead strategists make poor plans.

This wasn't a case of Quan listening to Xun's advice and then putting him down for it; this was Quan completely ignoring Wu's (arguably) greatest officer and removing him from power.  No solid reason is given for this.  The only hint given is that Quan was trying to isolate the feuding factions amongst his supporters...but this hint doesn't appear until well after the two sides have formed (and that Xun has been warning against such a scenario for awhile already.)  This is perhaps the first real indicator of Quan losing grip with reality as the entire period seems to enshroud him in a sense of paranoia.  For an person that is dedicated solely to his lord and the well being of Wu, such a turn of events (with no reasoning behind, from what we can tell) must have come as a crippling shock.

For a modern comparison, picture yourself as the CEO of a company and, under your guidance, the company has become more successful than ever before.  You are credited with many brilliant ideas and strategies (by the board, no less) that have helped the company reach this point.  One day, however, you find that the board won't take your phone calls...and the next, you find your name plaque in a trash can and your office door locked.  Security then escorts you from the building with no reason given.  How do you handle it?  Shrug your shoulders?  In modern times...maybe.  Back then, though, when helping that company was viewed as your only purpose in life...you'd be devastated. 

[scholar]

How is he any different than the likes of Ju Shou and Tian Feng?  Once Shao's mind started to slip there was little they could do to get Shao to go along with their advice.  Same deal with Xun.  In no way does it take away from what he was able to accomplish.

Well, for one, neither Ju Shou nor Tian Feng got depressed to the point that it compromised their health and died. Both, even after their removal, stood resolute to their lord who abandoned them.

[looknohands]

Difference being that Shao died relatively soon after, whereas Quan didn't, not to mention the fact that Xun tried repeatedly (in vain) to persuade Quan after being isolated, so I'd hardly portray that as Xun simply giving up.