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[Orochi_X]

Actually, I can't say the foolish, it leads to ambiguity. I prefer look it from the lose ones angle.

Cao Cao = he built up his Wei, then Simas got it.
Liu Bei = given a Zhou by Tao Qian / Liu Biao, but unwanted, then he should get them with more resources, wasting time ! Made Wei went stronger.
Sun Jian = dreaming to be an Emperor.
Ma Teng = a white clean heart who didn't realize his own danger.
Lu Bu = this one great was a great stubborn.
He Jin = what a pityful.
Yuan Shao = to sad the most prospect early wasn't helped by his lucky.
Dong Zhuo = killed by his own almighty.
Zhou Yu = may I say died pushed by his own private rivalry againts Zhuge Liang
Xu You = died after helped his boss by his boss.

And, many of them..

I agree with these, but more towards the topic of foolishness, is what I think to be is Cao Cao's advance on Chi Bi. I think more of why he led his advance towards the south was his greed and impatience of taking over the land. After taking over Yuan Shao, he did gain much respect from the Emperor right? Anyways, sailing down the Yellow River with a huge chunk of his army and so many boats with inexpirienced or no naval officers at his side, bad idea. The fact of how he lost it all is unbelievable, due to Mother Nature and a fire attack (and chained ships), this was by far the most foolish thing Cao Cao has done, especially for being an intelligent man.

[Humble Hero]

Well, with regards to Cao Cao, I may actually put up his treatment of Zhang Xiu as the most foolish thing he ever did. As with Chi Bi, I believe Cao was getting a little complacent, and while he didnt lose as much of his army during that revolt as he did during Chi Bi, it did cost him what could have been a fine heir and a magnificent bodyguard.

The foolishness though comes from that he would not be weary of a man backed by someone like Jia Xu (and Cao Cao prides himself on recognizing talent.) and such conduct towards Zhang's aunt could be too easily construed as disrespect to be a good idea.

[looknohands]

I agree with these, but more towards the topic of foolishness, is what I think to be is Cao Cao's advance on Chi Bi. I think more of why he led his advance towards the south was his greed and impatience of taking over the land. After taking over Yuan Shao, he did gain much respect from the Emperor right? Anyways, sailing down the Yellow River with a huge chunk of his army and so many boats with inexpirienced or no naval officers at his side, bad idea. The fact of how he lost it all is unbelievable, due to Mother Nature and a fire attack (and chained ships), this was by far the most foolish thing Cao Cao has done, especially for being an intelligent man.

Not sure I'd call it foolish on Cao's part.  He had a chance to basically end his opposition in one fell swoop but fell victim to a ploy by the enemy.  In the end, it's not as though the defeat even cost him much (directly.)

Foolish, for me, is best exemplified by Liu Yu.  Noble or not, if one is to engage in war there is going to be blood spilled...likely some of it will include "innocent" people.  To order your troops into battle and then give them so many restrictions on actually fighting...he pretty much got what he deserved.

[El Jefe]

Yeah Cao Cao had bigger blunders than Chibi. The more I learn about the battle, the more I feel he simply had to go with the momentum. You've spent 8 years battering down your northern nemeses and quelling tribal factions, and the northwest and southwest are nominally pacified. You just zipped through northern Jing with lightning speed and all you've really got left standing in your way from unifying the land is some upstart who had been at war for years with his father's killer and the ever-present thorn in your side Liu Bei, who's on the run.

Do you really stop and say, "Gee, maybe I should head back to the capital and start looking for a competent pool of officers to train for naval operations. This Quan fellow might actually put up a fight!"

If Quan surrendered, Liu Bei at best would've been a Gongsun Shu style blurb in Emperor Wu of Wei's Wikipedia entry and nothing more.

[Orochi_X]

Haha, thanks guys for making me feel dumb 

Just kidding

But yeah I'm not too keen on history of either Three Kingdoms or Warring States, but from what I know, to what I think is foolish, was Cao Cao's advance on Chi Bi.

[Ma Su]

After taking over Yuan Shao, he did gain much respect from the Emperor right?

Xian not trying to kill Cao Cao probably had more to do with his concubine and children's execution

I would go with HH's view on Cao Cao's most foolish act, the incident at Wan. That was a textbook of how to alienate a newly surrendered lord, cost him family and an officer, was embarrassing and meant Cao Cao would have to face Zhang Xiu, and lose, again. It was so easily preventable.

Chi Bi looks worse becuase he lost and becuase, surprisingly, no opportunity emerged for some time as Wu proved surprisingly skilled. I think it was natural to have a go, a quick victory was there to be won against a kingdom that had been on the brink of surrender. Critics have pointed to flaws within the alternative plan of halting the advance, as proposed by Jia Xu, so perhaps there was no right answer.

[Orochi_X]

Xian not trying to kill Cao Cao probably had more to do with his concubine and children's execution

I would go with HH's view on Cao Cao's most foolish act, the incident at Wan. That was a textbook of how to alienate a newly surrendered lord, cost him family and an officer, was embarrassing and meant Cao Cao would have to face Zhang Xiu, and lose, again. It was so easily preventable.

Chi Bi looks worse becuase he lost and becuase, surprisingly, no opportunity emerged for some time as Wu proved surprisingly skilled. I think it was natural to have a go, a quick victory was there to be won against a kingdom that had been on the brink of surrender. Critics have pointed to flaws within the alternative plan of halting the advance, as proposed by Jia Xu, so perhaps there was no right answer.

Thanks Ma Su 

[S1lver]

Liu Chan was the most foolish of them all
why dint you leave him died ZHAO WHY!!!!!
i think he was such a fool that simazhao almost got a heart attack laughing at him lol                                             

he was such a fool that the sima dint even killed him,and you know guys what happen to defeated leader in thesed chaotic time ^^

i really think he was a trisomic,and that why even today is AKA name mean A FOOL

[Boydie]

It's a bit harsh I think. Some say Liu Shan had excellent people management skills, like his father. From the top of my head he was able to balance the interests of the two major factions in his court. So I wouldn't call him the foolish of them all.

[Gray Riders]

he was such a fool that the sima dint even killed him,and you know guys what happen to defeated leader in thesed chaotic time ^^

Well, if they surrender like Liu Shan did, they surived quite often. Killing guys that give up sets a very, very bad precedent. Even Cao Cao let Zhang Xiu live after he had killed his son, and Zhang Xiu was a skilled general who'd almost killed Cao Cao himself in the past. Sima let Sun Hao live too, remember.

Liu Shan actually had some level of stability in his court; he certainly didn't have the problems Liu Zhang had earlier, so I wouldn't out him as the most foolish.

[ShuFan]

I just finished a spot of reading on the Sun family, and I would like to nominate someone for "The most foolish of them all"; Sun Lang.

[S1lver]

Liu was a worthless Lord,he made many problem in is land following is euneuch advice
sec0ndely he must had been well aware that eunuch is not a good thing to have,and yet still he luved them
he had a fantastic lineup for domestic affair so all went good when he touch nothing,that why some may think he was good wiht domestic affair.
ChangAn *Could* had fallen but he recall Zhuge for foolissness,He replace JiangWei commander in chief for the friend of is euneuch love,jiangwei was afraid of a wei invasion and plead for rebuilding the army,liu said NO,we can go on and on wiht LiuChan foolissness but do we have the night?
And 1 last thing,Liu was a party guy and spent not much time working for is kingdoms he put more time in banquet and woman,even after the fall of is Father kingdoms he was still doing banquet,LiuBei Kingdoms was the 1 who strived the most to become something and was the first to die
And personnaly i put all blame on LiuChan and suspect he might have  really been a trisomic and that why Sima dint kill him,cause he was no threat to him

[Ma Su]

It's a bit harsh I think. Some say Liu Shan had excellent people management skills, like his father. From the top of my head he was able to balance the interests of the two major factions in his court. So I wouldn't call him the foolish of them all.

I wouldn't go as far as that. Liu Shan had people skills so far as he could keep the court together in a way Wei and Wu would have envied and nobody seems to have slagged him off after Shu surrendered but people management also includes firing the incompetent or the untrustworthy and he failed on that.

I just finished a spot of reading on the Sun family, and I would like to nominate someone for "The most foolish of them all"; Sun Lang.

Don't know enough to comment. If it wouldn't be too much bother, a little detail would be nice so I can be better informed.

Liu Chan was the most foolish of them all
why dint you leave him died ZHAO WHY!!!!!                                

Forgive me but what does trisomic mean?

If Zhao Yun had left an innocent baby to die, Shu may well have collapsed in civil war or suffering a regency disaster. Don't forget Shu was prosperous for most of Liu Shan's reign and the emperor provided stability.  

he was such a fool that the sima dint even killed him,and you know guys what happen to defeated leader in thesed chaotic time ^^

You mean like Zhang Xiu, Hua Xin, Liu Xun, Liu Zhang and so on? Killing Liu Shan would have been a disaster in terms of relations with the newly conquered kingdom and with attempting to bring Wu to heel. Inspiring people to resist to the last and smacking your new officers in the face would have been making life difficult for the Sima's without need to do so.

Yes, people are strange as to what they believe. Guan Yu God of War for example. Richard III the hunchback.

As for the rest

1) Yes he did follow a eunuch's advice and that of several of his gentry officers. China kept eunuchs and Emperors kept trusting them. There are several reasons for this but one quick explanation is: the gentry were arguably worse but tended to write themselves up a bit in the history. The notorious ten eunuchs were arguably a lot more loyal to the Han then every gentry powerhouse between Liang Ji and Cao Pi for example.

There were able eunuchs as well so really, why shouldn't Emperor's use eunuchs if they are able? The issue with Liu Shan is surely that he used bad advisers near the end, be they eunuch or gentry not that he used eunuchs.

2) Yes Liu Shan had a strong civil core but he could have easily interfered or not chosen such men, he also gave them a stable platform to build from.

3) The recalls of both Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei were made up by the novel. Liu Shan kept well out of military affairs which was, in the last ten years, a mistake. He actually backed Jiang Wei over Huang Hao and forced Huang to apologise.

4) Jiang was not denied for what he wanted for camapigns except when Fei Yi was alive.

5) Liu Shan liked music, sightseeing and woman, hardly the greatest crimes. Where I do agree with you is that, in the last ten years of his reign, he should have stepped forward and sacked Huang Hao, Jiang Wei, Yan Yu, Chen Zhi, Dong Jue and Zhuge Zhan and replaced them with the likes of Qiao Zhou and Zhang Yi in the two most senior roles.

6) After Shu fell, it was wise to do banquets. I'm not sure I am comfortable with rating any kingdom as striving the most since most started from unpromising beginnings. Shu being the first of the main three to die was hardly a surprise, being the size of province+the mixed blessing that was Hanzhong after 219 left them with real difficulty.

And personnaly i put all blame on LiuChan

Your placing all the blame of Liu Shan when he was still a teenager in 219? Shouldn't some of subordinates get the blame too?

[ShuFan]

Don't know enough to comment. If it wouldn't be too much bother, a little detail would be nice so I can be better informed.

Certainly

Sun Lang, youngest recorded(?) son of Sun Jian. Took part in Wu's defence of Dongkou led by Lu fan, against Cao Xiu's fleet. Weather conditions were unfavourable to a fire attack, thus Lu Fan gave strict orders not to attempt a fire attack. Sun Lang disobeyed this order and went ahead and attempted to use a fire attack against Cao Xiu's fleet. The results were disastrous, with much of Lu Fan's fleet and many of the army's siege machines and supplies ending up destroyed.

Sun Quan was furious and not only imprisoned him for life but also cut off all familial ties with his younger brother by changing Lang's surname to Ding.

So not only did he disobey what I imagine was a direct order, but he ignored the essential component of a successful fire attack.

[Gray Riders]

Forgive me but what does trisomic mean?

Trisomy is the condition of having three copies of a chromosome, so trisomic probably means someone with that. I have no idea how that would influence him being executed.


*
I read about Sun Lang recently, and he probably deserves honoraby mention at the very least.