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[scholar]

Jin is technically well within the sphere of Three Kingdoms history, so what do you think ultimately lead to the fall of Jin? Here's something from Wikipedia for you to look over (while it seems extensive, believe me, it isn't and remember, it's still Wikipedia. Take things with a grain of salt.):

The Empire of Jin

The Jin dynasty was founded by the Sima family, a prominent family within Cao Wei, the most powerful of China's Three Kingdoms. They effectively controlled Cao Wei's military forces after 250, becoming the real rulers of the state. In 265 CE, the last Wei emperor abdicated and gave up his throne to Sima Yan, who became the first Jin emperor.

As Emperor Wu of Jin, Sima Yan immediately focused on conquering the last of the Three Kingdoms, Wu, which controlled southeastern China. In 280 CE, 200,000 Jin troops in six columns, travelling by river and land, invaded Wu from both Sichuan  and the North. They quickly broke through all resistance, including an attempt by Wu's chancellor Zhang Di to stop them with 30,000 troops. Very soon, Jin forces were besieging the Wu capital, Nanjing, which had only 20,000 defenders. Realizing he was doomed, the Wu ruler surrendered to Jin, and China was reunified.

During the rule of Emperor Wu, China entered an era of prosperity. The Jin encouraged recovery by lowering taxes and subsidizing the construction of dikes and other works to benefit agriculture. The reunification of China also spurred on trade to help stimulate the economy.

This prosperity was reflected in the growing luxury of the emperor. One official reportedly entertained Emperor Wu with pork that had been fed on human milk, while another spent over 20,000 strings of cash each day on food alone. This decadence was criticized by other Jin officials, who also worried about increasing barbarian migration into China.

Following the death of Emperor Wu in 290, a complex power struggle began amongst the Sima clan. The new emperor, Emperor Hui, was developmentally disabled, and factions fought to control the imperial court. Initially, the emperor's stepmother, Empress Dowager Yang, exerted the most power at the courts, and empowered her family, the Yang consort clan, with her father Yang Jun given the most power.

The emperor's wife, Empress Jia Nanfeng enlisted the help of Sima Wei and Sima Yao, whose troops then killed Yang Jun and his faction in the palace in 291; the empress dowager was removed from power and died in prison.

[scholar]

Power then passed to Sima Liang, the emperor's grand-uncle. However, Empress Jia plotted with Sima Wei and convinced the prince to kill Sima Liang. She then announced that Sima Wei was acting without imperial orders and executed him. The empress and the Jia clan remained in power until 300, when she deposed and assassinated the heir to the throne, Sima Yu, her husband's son by the concubine Consort Xie Jiu.

Sima Lun, who commanded the imperial guards, took this opportunity to kill the Empress Jia and her faction. Sima Lun placed himself in power and tried to centralize control over the powerful princes; this resulted in Sima Yao's rebellion, who marched his troops to capital against Sima Lun; Sima Yao was killed by Sima Lun's troops in the ensuing battle in Luoyang. Sima Lun then imprisoned Emperor Hui and styled himself as the new emperor.

In response, Sima Jiong led a coalition of forces, including Sima Ying and Sima Yong, against Sima Lun. They defeated Sima Lun's troops, killed him, and then re-established Emperor Hui as the emperor, with Sima Jiong exerting the most influence at the imperial court. When Sima Jiong tried to centralize power in his hands, the princes rebelled against him, and he was defeated by Sima Ai, the Prince of Changsha and killed.

Likewise, Sima Ai held power briefly, then was later defeated by Sima Yue and killed. Sima Yue's troops by this time had strongly incorporated Wuhuan and Xianbei troops as cavalry.

Power then passed to Sima Ying, who was then defeated and fled Luoyang with the emperor. He was finally captured by Sima Yong, who was in turn defeated by Sima Yue's troops. Emperor Hui was poisoned in 306, and his brother, Emperor Huai, ascended the throne. Sima Ying and Sima Yong were eventually captured and killed; Sima Yong died on February 7, 307, which marked the official end of the struggle.

The resultant winner was last surviving major prince, Sima Yue. The struggle depopulated northern China and greatly weakened the strength of the Jin Dynasty.

The eight princes included:

    * Sima Liang (ch. 司馬亮), son of Sima Yi (ch. 司馬懿), titled the Prince of Runan (ch. 汝南王)
    * Sima Wei (ch. 司馬瑋), son of Emperor Wu, titled the Prince of Chu (ch. 楚王)
    * Sima Lun (ch. 司馬倫), son of Sima Yi, titled the Prince of Zhao (ch. 趙王)
    * Sima Jiong (ch. 司馬冏), nephew of Emperor Wu, titled the Prince of Qi (ch. 齊王)
    * Sima Ying (ch. 司馬穎), son of Emperor Wu, titled the Prince of Chengdu (ch. 成都王)
    * Sima Ai (ch. 司馬乂), son of Emperor Wu, titled the Prince of Changsha (ch. 長沙王)
    * Sima Yong (ch. 司馬顒), distant cousin of Emperor Wu, titled the Prince of Hejian. (ch. 河間王)
    * Sima Yue (ch. 司馬越), distant cousin of Emperor Wu, titled the Prince of Donghai (ch. 東海王)

[scholar]

Most of the Wu Hu tribes had been moved into Jin China by the Chinese imperial government in order to serve as labourers for the Chinese economy (which was badly damaged during the Three Kingdoms period). They had revolted before; for example, the Xiongnu revolted against Jin rule in 294 CE when forced to migrate into Chinese territory. Many Jin officials identified this potential threat and recommended extermination or expulsion of the barbarians. This advice was not heeded by the Jin court.

After the devastating War of the Eight Princes, the Jin Dynasty was exhausted and unable to control the Wu Hu peoples it had moved into its territory several decades earlier to provide labour. Taking advantage of this, Xiongnu Chieftain Liu Yuan rebelled against the Jin Dynasty and soon thousands of other barbarians joined his army in its fight against the Jin.

In an attempt to make claims to be a legitimate dynasty, Liu Yuan choose his imperial state to be named Han, after the previous Chinese dynasty before the Wei and Jin.

The Jin Dynasty was ineffective in its attempts to halt the uprising. The Jin capital, Luoyang was open to Liu Yuan's son Liu Chong (who was now commander of the Wu Hu forces), and he attacked Luoyang in 309 and 310 CE twice, without success. However, the Jin Challcenor Sima Yue fled Luoyang in 310CE with 40,000 troops to Xiangcheng in Henan in an attempt to flee this threat.

After Sima Yue's death, the main Jin forces in Henan, led by Wang Heng, decided to proceed to Shantung to defeat Shi Le (one of the Wu Hu generals), but was defeated by the Wu Hu forces and more than 100,000 soldiers perished, resulting in the loss of much of Jin's army.

After the defeat of Wang Heng's forces, Jin forces were no longer able to hold Luoyang, who fell to the Wu Hu in 311CE. Upon entering the city, the Wu Hu engaged in a promiscuous massacre, killing over 30,000 people and turning the city into a pile of rubble. This event in Chinese history was known as the Disaster of Yongjia. The Jin emperor was also captured and later killed. Although another Jin regime was set up in Chang'an, it too was destroyed in 316CE by Liu Chong. Following this, millions of Chinese fled to South China to escape barbarian rule.

Although the main Jin regime in the North was defeated, Jin forces continued to hold three provinces in the North, namely Yozhou, Liangzhou, and Binzhou. These provinces, however, were cut off from the main Jin forces now in the South and eventually conquered by the barbarian forces, reducing Jin control to the area south of the Huai river.

Millions of Chinese were slaughtered by the Wu Hu in the Era following this uprising, and the once-powerful Chinese Empire had crumbled. Henceforth, much of North China was now under alien rule and not until the Sui Dynasty would a native regime rule over all North China(not counting the brief regime of Ran Wei).

[scholar]

The remaining followers of the Jin Dynasty retreated south and formed the Eastern Jin Dynasty, whose control was limited to South China. Throughout this period, the Jin court was severely weakened, allowing the Eastern Jin to be dominated by strong generals such as Wang Bo and Huan Wen.

Huan Wen was a general who took control of Jin forces in the 350s. Determined to expand his own prestige and reclaim the territory of China, Huan Wen led several campaigns against the barbarian states of Former Yan and Former Qin.

During the first expedition(354 CE), Jin forces moved up the river to engage the army of Former Qin. Jin forces won a decisive victory at Lantian and defeated a Qin army of over 50,000 soldiers, reaching Chang'an. The Jin army was widely applauded by the Chinese civilians, who offered food and provisions for the soldiers. However, due to lack of food, the Jin army was forced to retreat, leaving the area under barbarian control. Over 10,000 Jin soldiers died in the retreat.

In 356 CE Jin forces captured Luoyang from Former Yan but was forced to withdraw due to lack of support

Jin launched a major campaign against Former Yan in 369 CE. Jin forces defeated Yan forces and reached Fanto, causing panic in the Yan court. However, the Former Yan general Murong Quai led 50,000 troops and stopped the Jin advance at the Yellow river. Meanwhile Xianbei cavalry cut off the Jin supply lines and forced them to retreat. During the retreat, Murong Quai led an army to pursue the Jin forces and over 30,000 Jin soldiers were killed in the resulting battle.

Due to the failure of Jin to reclaim the Northern heartlands, Jin forces were soon faced with the gigantic threat of Former Qin.

By 376 CE, the North had been reunified under the state of Former Qin, putting Jin in grave danger. In 383 CE, Fu Jian, ruler of Former Qin, invaded Jin with 300,000 troops, against which the Jin could only deploy 80,000 troops. However, the Chinese troops were well-trained and equipped, while the Qin army was made up mostly of conscripts. In the Battle of Fei River, the Qin army was routed by the Jin army.

After this victory, Challcenor Xie An, taking advantage of Former Qin's collapse, reclaimed much of the territory north of the Huai river for Jin. However, a rebellion by Huan Wen's son Huan Xun distracted the Jin, who were unable to defeat it until the rise of Liu Yu.

Liu Yu's first expedition was against Southern Yan in 409 CE. The Jin army attacked from Nanjing to Xiapei, and then to Longchen. Along the roads, Jin's forces built fortresses to prevent Southern Yan forces from cutting off their supplies. By May, Jin forces reached the Southern Yan capital at Guangdu. When he reached the area, Liu Yu saw that the ground was covered with grain and he said to his men that: "The Southern Yan ruler is already in my hand", as there would be no supply problems. In February 410 CE, Jin forces captured Guangdu and put an end to Southern Yan.

In 416 CE, Liu Yu launched a major attack against Later Qin, defeating its general, Yao Shao. After this victory, Liu Yu recovered Luoyang, the former capital of the Jin Dynasty and was crowned Duke of Song. To complete his victory, he sent two armies into Shaanxi to engage the remnants of Later Qin's forces.

On their way there, the Jin forces were harassed by Northern Wei cavalry, who attacked the Jin forces' supply routes. In a major engagement, Jin forces defeated Northern Wei forces using crossbows to launch spears through the Wei forces, frightening them and reputedly killing some 30,000 Wei soldiers. Following this victory, Jin forces continued on Later Qin and captured its capital Chang'an, destroying it.

Following this victory, it seemed that Jin would quickly destroy Xia, Northern Wei and the remaining barbarian states, reunifying China. However, Liu Yu went back to Nanjing on rumors of the death of Emperor An of Jin, leaving his general Wang Zhen'en in charge. Xia forces took the opportunity to attack, and captured the Chang'an region from Jin. Nevertheless, Jin still held most of China's territory south of the Yellow river, the traditional heartland of China. Following these victories, Liu Yu's prestige rose, to the point where he usurped the Jin throne in 420 CE, ending the dynasty. Under the rule of him and his son, China would enter a brief golden age, lasting until the Xianbei again conquered north China during the rule of Emperor Ming of Liu Song

[Lessis Solono]

I would not call Jin an Empire mainly because the land they conquered was already ravaged and Sima Yan more or less disbanded the larger majority of his army shortly after 280. Given the almost utter decentralization of the government, the incompetence and greed of those who surrounded the Imperial family and the members themselves (Primarily Empress Jia and Princes) it was a nightmare waiting to happen and did with Sima Zhong.

[Nick]

Ah Lessis... We've been expecting you.

[Lessis Solono]

Ah Lessis... We've been expecting you.

Where is my bouquet of flowers then? 

[scholar]

I would not call Jin an Empire mainly because the land they conquered was already ravaged and Sima Yan more or less disbanded the larger majority of his army shortly after 280. Given the almost utter decentralization of the government, the incompetence and greed of those who surrounded the Imperial family and the members themselves (Primarily Empress Jia and Princes) it was a nightmare waiting to happen and did with Sima Zhong.

Now here's a face I haven't seen in a very long time.

That's a bit like saying post-WW2 (East and West) Germany wasn't a country because it was ravaged and had no army to speak of. And being decentralized and having greedy ministers doesn't mean that the Empire isn't an Empire either, I mean, look at the Mongol Empire (Pre-Kublai take over.), the Empires was extraordinarily decentralized with each General basically ruling over the region with complete and utter autonomy. Though I suppose it's just an argument over semantics

I agree, it was definitely a nightmare waiting to happen, but Western Jin tried to correct the mistakes that Wei had done. Wei locked away most Cao family relatives that could even post a minor danger severely limiting the amount of loyal people to draw on and leaving the main line vulnerable. Jin tried to give every Sima the power to stop things from going the way of Wei and things turned out the opposite. Instead of a new family taking over, the old one tore it apart.

[El Jefe]

Yeah, after browsing the early Jin years on Wikipedia, I had to chuckle at the very rapid exchange of power during Sima Zhong's reign. Also, the desire to almost go the opposite way of Wei stood out. I actually think Wei made the right choice in keeping princes from garnering real power. The only real problem was the untimely deaths of both Cao Pi and Cao Rui, which led to the regency mayhem. Had Cao Rui lived a full life, or even just 10 to 15 years longer so his son was of age and competent, Sima Yi probably would've happily stayed loyal to the kingdom. And once Cao Pi died and his son inherited, I feel Cao Zhi should've been allowed to participate in the political arena as he desired. Otherwise, it solved a very, very common problem.

But what got me the most was how Sima Yan just let things play out. You think he'd tell his wifey "Honey, I know you're the empress and my developmentally challenged son's mom and all, but my dad deposed emperors in his day. I don't want the same to happen to my boy. Let's put somebody who knows the answer to 2+2 on the throne after me, k?"

[Lessis Solono]

That's a bit like saying post-WW2 (East and West) Germany wasn't a country because it was ravaged and had no army to speak of.

Occupied Germany wasn't a country, it was a cluster of four nations vying to consolidate their power and break up Germany.

And being decentralized and having greedy ministers doesn't mean that the Empire isn't an Empire either, I mean, look at the Mongol Empire (Pre-Kublai take over.), the Empires was extraordinarily decentralized with each General basically ruling over the region with complete and utter autonomy.

The Mongols always had an army and the size demanded such extreme decentralization, which led to their downfall.

I agree, it was definitely a nightmare waiting to happen, but Western Jin tried to correct the mistakes that Wei had done. Wei locked away most Cao family relatives that could even post a minor danger severely limiting the amount of loyal people to draw on and leaving the main line vulnerable.

A policy started with Cao Pi, Cao Cao was much better in this area. He was paranoid but he wasn't manic about it until very late in his life.

Jin tried to give every Sima the power to stop things from going the way of Wei and things turned out the opposite.

The irony is that it was a mistake that had much more precedence than Wei's mistake. Shows the utter incompetence of Sima Yan as a ruler when you actively dismiss the advice of Zhang Hua and Wang Hun.

 

Instead of a new family taking over, the old one tore it apart.

All too common.

But what got me the most was how Sima Yan just let things play out. You think he'd tell his wifey "Honey, I know you're the empress and my developmentally challenged son's mom and all, but my dad deposed emperors in his day. I don't want the same to happen to my boy. Let's put somebody who knows the answer to 2+2 on the throne after me, k?"

Sima Yan was extremely incompetent. He lacked the overall intelligence of his grandfather and the leadership skills and cunning of his father.

He was much more content to spend his days riding in his cart and having sex with concubines all day.

[scholar]

Occupied Germany wasn't a country, it was a cluster of four nations vying to consolidate their power and break up Germany.

East and West Germany weren't countries? They entered the United Nations together.

The Mongols always had an army and the size demanded such extreme decentralization, which led to their downfall

The Mongols only had an army and size that demanded decentralization for about 50-100 years. The rest was by choice and by culture. What lead to their downfall was infighting and the rise of Islam within the Golden and Chagatai Hordes which lead to a collapse in relations between them and the Il Khanate as well as the Great Yuan. Hardly decentralization and large armies, it was religious turmoil that lead to their end.

A policy started with Cao Pi, Cao Cao was much better in this area. He was paranoid but he wasn't manic about it until very late in his life.

Though I wonder if it was truly a necessity to go nearly as far as it did. Limited power and influence is always a good thing, but the Cao family was one of Cao Cao's greatest supporters. His family helped him attain greatness. Getting rid of them seems neither wise nor entirely necessary. Only those that pose a challenge to the throne need be removed.

The irony is that it was a mistake that had much more precedence than Wei's mistake. Shows the utter incompetence of Sima Yan as a ruler when you actively dismiss the advice of Zhang Hua and Wang Hun.

True, but I would not go so far as to declare him "utterly" incompetent, but rather a man who made several mistakes, but was able to accomplish some good things. In your opinion who would be the greatest Emperor of Jin from Sima Yan, to it's usurpation into Liu Song, by Liu Yu.

All too common.

Not yet it wasn't. I would be so bold as to say the first family to tear itself apart at the seems leading to the total collapse of it's central authority had only existed on one or two prior examples in the feudal period of Zhou before Jin. This would mean there was a lack of a precedent.

[Lessis Solono]

East and West Germany weren't countries? They entered the United Nations together.

I'm talking before the Berlin divide era, I mean the immediate end of World War II.

 

Hardly decentralization and large armies, it was religious turmoil that lead to their end.

Nope, Mongols never had large armies, and I misspoke when I used decentralized, should have said expansive.

Though I wonder if it was truly a necessity to go nearly as far as it did. Limited power and influence is always a good thing, but the Cao family was one of Cao Cao's greatest supporters. His family helped him attain greatness. Getting rid of them seems neither wise nor entirely necessary. Only those that pose a challenge to the throne need be removed.

Which is why Cao Cao was a fine balance in that area while Cao Pi made it an extreme measure and opposite occurred from the intended system.
 

True, but I would not go so far as to declare him "utterly" incompetent, but rather a man who made several mistakes, but was able to accomplish some good things.

Unification was an inevitable result that only occurred under his reign. It was not his wisdom or leadership that led to it but rather those under him who spearheaded it. A leader who can recognize his own weaknesses and compensate (Liu Bei, for example) with people around him has his own unique value but Sima Yan was short-sighted, stubborn and rather foolish when it came to pressing and important matters. He was a coincidental leader, who only was put into his position because he was Sima Zhao's son, not because of any merit or skill he possessed himself. He was unfit to rule a kingdom like Jin and it showed in the chaos after his death. His greatest contribution to Jin was to be the catalyst for its collapse and exile to the south.

In your opinion who would be the greatest Emperor of Jin from Sima Yan, to it's usurpation into Liu Song, by Liu Yu.

Sima Rui, which is rather sad.

Not yet it wasn't. I would be so bold as to say the first family to tear itself apart at the seems leading to the total collapse of it's central authority had only existed on one or two prior examples in the feudal period of Zhou before Jin. This would mean there was a lack of a precedent.

Yuan Tan and Yuan Shang, less than a century before Jin.

[Louhawk]

But what got me the most was how Sima Yan just let things play out. You think he'd tell his wifey "Honey, I know you're the empress and my developmentally challenged son's mom and all, but my dad deposed emperors in his day. I don't want the same to happen to my boy. Let's put somebody who knows the answer to 2+2 on the throne after me, k?"

This made me laugh...very hard

I have a question.  If you don't consider Jin an empire, what about Wei, Shu and Wu?  They had rulers who called themselves emperors.  What is the difference?  Unification?  What constitutes an offical "empire"?