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Orochi_X
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« on: June 27, 2010, 08:52:39 pm »
I just only have a couple questions.

1. Isn't he related to the first real emperor of the Han, Liu Bang (Gaozu)?

2. If he is, wouldn't he be a rightful ruler to the throne (unless he wasn't a direct descedent).
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He Xing
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2010, 08:54:05 pm »
Well Liu Bei was uncle of Emperor Xian so he really would not inherit the throne but he was a a relative of Liu Bang
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Orochi_X
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2010, 08:58:38 pm »
Now I want to read the book, buy both parts and hopefully read them (because I am one not good with books). And thank you for your answer.
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He Xing
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2010, 09:42:32 pm »
no problem
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Ma Su
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2010, 12:20:24 am »
Quote from: He Xing on June 27, 2010, 08:54:05 pm
Well Liu Bei was uncle of Emperor Xian so he really would not inherit the throne but he was a a relative of Liu Bang

No he wasn't

1) By a long and very complex lineage yes

2) By inheritance route? Only if several hundred Liu's had died. However he is legitimate on the basis he had some lineage and he had the power to back it up to a degree
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scholar
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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2010, 06:44:59 am »
Quote from: Orochi_X on June 27, 2010, 08:52:39 pm
1. Isn't he related to the first real emperor of the Han, Liu Bang (Gaozu)?

2. If he is, wouldn't he be a rightful ruler to the throne (unless he wasn't a direct descedent).
1) Yes.

2) Liu Bei was no where near direct decedent. He was the son of a Prince who was maybe #4-12 of an Emperor in the Early Han, since then the family had so many kids and was so removed from the Imperial Family that he had very little wealth to his name, in fact his father was exceedingly low in the food chain. He was a sandal weaver... if not for his military talents he would have probably gone no farther than his father in the ranks of the Empire.
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Orochi_X
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2010, 09:08:30 am »
Quote from: scholar on June 28, 2010, 06:44:59 am
1) Yes.

2) Liu Bei was no where near direct decedent. He was the son of a Prince who was maybe #4-12 of an Emperor in the Early Han, since then the family had so many kids and was so removed from the Imperial Family that he had very little wealth to his name, in fact his father was exceedingly low in the food chain. He was a sandal weaver... if not for his military talents he would have probably gone no farther than his father in the ranks of the Empire.
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He Xing
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2010, 03:01:41 pm »
I had heard that Liu Bei was Emperor Xian's uncle.
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ShuFan

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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2010, 03:20:26 pm »
Quote from: He Xing on June 28, 2010, 03:01:41 pm
I had heard that Liu Bei was Emperor Xian's uncle.

No, not true. It's a novel event that has no basis in history.

As for Liu Bei's genealogy, his claim is very shaky. Scholar said he was the son of a prince, and I think he got his words mixed up, because he claimed to be descended from a Prince, not the son of one. Prince Jing of Zhongshan, or Liu Sheng to be exact, one of the Western Han Emperor Jing's sons. Whether or not it's true is hard to say, because as I understand it, Liu Bei's family line can only be traced back to his grandfather. If Bei's claim was genuine, he arguably had more legitimacy to the Han throne than the Emperors of the time.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 03:22:42 pm by ShuFan » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2010, 07:27:24 pm »
He would not have been a Liu had he been spawned from a Daughter, he would never be recognized. It was a son, or he was nothing.
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My story, Fallen Kingdoms read it, you'll like it Wink

History is... amazing, but it is also tragic. It is a story of never ending heroism, deceitfulness, wonder, pain, and tragedy. It is an unfinished epic, an unsolved mystery. There is so much we do not know, and there is so much we have yet to learn.
Orochi_X
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The mind shall vanquish the sword
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2010, 10:19:19 pm »
And poor Liu Bei, he has suffered many defeats and had to keep on moving to territory after territory, yet his men still had high hopes. And he only got to serve as emperor of Shu Han for 2 years. So I wonder what would happen if he didn't die from dysentry.
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Check out my new story I've written here on the forums. It's got a main series title: the Last Empire. I was hoping maybe you guys would possibly like reading it. http://www.tecmokoeiamerica.com/community/index.php?topic=14986.0
He Xing
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I so desperately want to test my wits.
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2010, 01:17:06 am »
Just to be curious since Guan Yu was not his actual oath brother did Liu Bei die from grief or was that just another thing of the novel.
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Ma Su
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2010, 01:56:23 am »
He was an old man so the death's of two of his closest friends and the realisation that Shu was in a bad situation probably contributed to his death but it wasn't the main causes. We don't know what exactly that stomach illness was he complained about

As for if he didn't die (and bucked up), rebuilt and maybe got one camapign off but Wei would be better prepared then they were against Zhuge Liang
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Yue Fei
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2010, 04:06:13 am »
Personally I think Liu Bei's stomach condition would be close to either Crohn's disease, stomach cancer, or even dysentery. It'd be nice to get some more details about his symptoms to properly diagnose it, but unfortunately all that can be done is speculate.
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ShuFan

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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2010, 04:13:56 am »
Quote from: scholar on June 28, 2010, 07:27:24 pm
He would not have been a Liu had he been spawned from a Daughter, he would never be recognized. It was a son, or he was nothing.

No, I understand that he claimed to be descended from a son, I even gave the son's name, but what I was reffering to was
Quote from: scholar on June 28, 2010, 06:44:59 am
He was the son of a Prince who was maybe #4-12 of an Emperor in the Early Han

His father wasn't a prince, he claimed that his ancestor was a prince that died roughly 300 years before Liu Bei.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 04:20:37 am by ShuFan » Logged
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