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[Zhao_Han]

We know that Liu Bei is "A man of Virtue", but why is the reason Liu Bei attacked Cheng Du? we know that Liu Bei and Liu Zhang is same kinsman, it is said that people of Cheng Du ordered Liu Bei to attack Liu Zhang. I don't understand why Liu Bei attacking Cheng Du, especially the reason.

[King of Ba Shu]

If you read through the Archives thread you will see that we have discussed this as length several times before. We really have beat it to death in my opinion, but anyway:

Liu Bei being a man of virtue is a title that Koei assigned him in the 21st Century, not a historical term.

Why did he attack Cheng Du? We can only speculate.

Yes, he did attack a member of his own family. We look at that today and it's bad, but in the filial piety standards it was much worse. Nearly taboo.

The people of Cheng Du did not order Bei to attack Zhang at first. He showed up. Set up camp, and the people were tired of the constant warfare between Liu Zhang and Zhang Lu. They then showed support to Bei and eventually Zhang would be forced out of office do to Bei's political and martial schemes.

In reality Liu Bei had little choice if he wanted to remain an independent force to not seize Yi. Sun Quan had solid control of Wu, and Cao Cao had taken all opposition out of He Bei and the Central Plains. Going west was the only chance he had to start up another base. Jing was not going to provide enough resources nor keep him safe from the other two men that would eventually create the other two kingdoms.

Any other forum members please correct me on my information. I have no situations, but what I have listed is what I can remember from previous debates and discussions.

[ShuFan]

Because Liu Bei was a brilliant, cunning, and sometimes ruthless warlord who knew that he needed a base of operations to support his claim to power, and to put him on (near) equal terms with Wu and Wei. He was invited into Liu Zhang's land by Fa Zheng and Zhang Song, and Liu Bei immediately took the chance.

KoBS posted while I was typing. He went into slightly more detail.

[yellow turban]

I think that Zhuge Liang consulted him to do so.Also many Shu officers were former officers of Liu Zhang (eg.:Yan Yan,Ma Chao)

[ShuFan]

I think that Zhuge Liang consulted him to do so.Also many Shu officers were former officers of Liu Zhang (eg.:Yan Yan,Ma Chao)

As I understand it, the main advisor for this was Pang Tong, as Zhuge was stationed in Jing. I may need clarification on the advisor part though.

Yan Yan was a loyal officer to Liu Zhang, and was prepared to die when he was captured by Zhang Fei. There is actually no evidence to suggest that he served Liu Bei.

Ma Chao never served Liu Zhang (thanks for pointing that mistake out Ma Su) either.

[Ma Su]

Yan Yan was serving Liu Zhang at the time and Ma Chao never served Liu Zhang (I assume ShuFan means Yan Yan and Ma Chao hadn't served Liu Bei yet). Pang Tong was the main adviser though the decision to go to war as Liu Bei's, he was the man who ordered maps made.

As others have pointed out, Liu Bei was a warlord, not a saint. He had ambitions and to fulfill them, he needed land. Liu Zhang's weakness and trust gave Liu Bei an opportunity to establish his own kingdom and take on Wei/Wu on decent terms. Not taking advantage off the opportunity and failing to engineer a war with Liu Zhang would have doomed him.

The people of Cheng Du did not order Bei to attack Zhang at first. He showed up. Set up camp, and the people were tired of the constant warfare between Liu Zhang and Zhang Lu. They then showed support to Bei and eventually Zhang would be forced out of office do to Bei's political and martial schemes.

Liu Zhang had enough support to last another year or so in Cheng Du. Liu Bei generally had popular support I agree but they didn't ask him to turn on Liu Zhang either

[ShuFan]

(I assume ShuFan means Yan Yan hadn't served Liu Bei yet).

It's not explicitly said that he served Liu Bei, at least not in the SGZ.

[concord67]

There is already a topic which discuss's Liu Bei attacking Cheng Du.

[looknohands]

It's not explicitly said that he served Liu Bei, at least not in the SGZ.

I thought he served under Zhang Fei in the attack on Han Zhong?  Or was that novel only?

[ShuFan]

I thought he served under Zhang Fei in the attack on Han Zhong?  Or was that novel only?

Just the novel as far as I'm aware. His historical bio from KMA is ridiculously short........

When Liu Bei was invited into Shu, Yan Yan said “This is what is called ’a man who sits on a poor hill alone, and lets loose a tiger to defend himself.’ As Grand Administrator of Ba commandery, he was beaten and captured by Zhang Fei. Yan Yan angered Zhang Fei but his courage when facing execution saw Yan Yan released and treated as a guest.

Nothing is said of his service under Liu Bei.

[yellow turban]

I will never trust the video game again......still,did Liu Bei showed.....disrespect to Liu Zhang?

[ShuFan]

I will never trust the video game again......

Welcome to the dark side.

still,did Liu Bei showed.....disrespect to Liu Zhang?

Yes, they were distant relatives, and as KoBS said, it was considered even worse back then that it is now, to attack your own kin. However, most of us see it as a necessary betrayal.

[Nick]

Liu Bei being a man of virtue is a title that Koei assigned him in the 21st Century, not a historical term.

Well, that's hardly fair.  Story tellers during the Yuan Dynasty began painting him as that.  KOEI is simply continuing the legacy.

[King of Ba Shu]

Well, that's hardly fair.  Story tellers during the Yuan Dynasty began painting him as that.  KOEI is simply continuing the legacy.

Liu Bei being kind and virtuous was of the Yuan Dynasty, but to call Liu Bei a "Man of Virtue" plays into KOEI. Similar to how they have run away with Ma Chao and justice, Zhang He and beauty, and more recently Guan Yu and duty.

KOEI seems to like the effect. But back to history.

[Humble Hero]

Putting it simply, Liu Bei was playing for keeps. Family or not, Liu Zhang was the only warlord that Bei could overpower, and he needed land to attack Cao Cao and Sun Quan.