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Author Topic: Gongsun Zan  (Read 6915 times)
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Ma Su
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« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2010, 11:02:01 pm »

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OH MY GOD LIU BIE THE NICE or the girl his empire crushed and kinness does not have place to fit in war

and yet Liu Bei forged an empire. Mostly because, while he had a streak of kindness, he also had a streak of ruthless ambition, cruelty and evilness. The whole saint thing is a novel invention

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dong zhou the great's acts were evil but there is people killed eachother in marrige prposals and she deserved it

ok, tell me how she deserved it?

People tended not to kill each other in marriage proposals, certainly not by tearing them apart by chariots.

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killing people from a villege will increase your reptation and people will obey and scare from him and the army steal food and suplies and gold

the supplies he gained would have been negligible compared to the damage to his reputation.

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have you heard about his tactics at the battle of the Qiang tribes?

Yes and his success against Wang Kuang, for which I much admire him. Have you heard how Huangfu Song surpassed him, his struggles against Zhang Liang and losing to Sun Jian?

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also lu bu is evil aswell for killing his father so easily with no mercy

Some will agree with you on that, some won't. Overall, I think Lu Bu committed it one or two evil acts but that overall, he wasn't an evil man

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li su sttabed dong zhou in the gate then poor dong zhou cried to lu bu to help him but that crazy stupid stone hearted said (this is an imperail order) and rather then rescuing him he delvried a fatal blow to his corbse without sheding a tear and his dead body were left on the street and any anyone who went forth to collect the body was killed

Dong had already nearly killed Lu Bu, that kind of thing does tend to destroy relationships. Lu Bu struck back before Dong tried to kill him again. The "anyone who wept thing" was a novel invention as is some of the descriptions

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and his brother and relatives were killed by those motherf*cking eunchs


As scholar says, no swearing, next time you get a warning. If you feel like swearing, walk around the house, take a few deep breaths, maybe drink some water then when your calm, return to the debate

Dong's relatives were never touched by the eunuchs, indeed Dong's brother was serving under He Jin in the capital. Even when Dong advanced on the capital, the eunuchs made no attempt on his brother's life

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if i were in those times i would kill those people along with lu bu. the evil spearman

Most of the eunuchs were not evil, it was just a couple of bad apples.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 11:12:43 pm by Ma Su » Logged
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« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2010, 11:42:45 pm »

gongsun zan did the killed his family so that was a truely a great act of bravery and dong zhou its menteioned he was chivelerus when he was young and killed bandits and was rewarded with 8000 of fine silk for his great acts

dong zhou wasant decent and lu bu the coward acttualy want to fight and shed blood all over the time and killed his father with an evil laugh


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqnA8UVqs7w

Assassination of Dong Zhuo
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« Reply #77 on: April 30, 2010, 12:39:39 am »

Killing your own, defenceless, family is a horrific thing to have to do. Brave? Kinda but wouldn't call it great bravery or enough of a deed to overcome his crimes. (edited in:) Yes Dong did have some good things while young, as people have admitted, doesn't though excuse his tyranny when he became ruler

Your using a TV series? Sorry but isn't that a novel based series? Even then, TV programs do have a tendency to put entertainment over fact. Which is fair enough but don't try to use it in a history debate. Try using actual historical sources?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 12:42:16 am by Ma Su » Logged
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« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2010, 01:15:01 am »

and why i will use a tv series i am using real historical sources not tv but gongsun zan has achived it by killing his family and gained power to be a ruler and he was fated to do so
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« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2010, 01:22:04 am »

ok, quote me from a historical source that claims what you have about Dong's death? Why link to a youtube video? The details you have kept describing are from the novel

He was fated? No, Zan made his own choices. Would he have lost eventually? Yes, he wasn't good enough in battle but he could have treated his people better, he could have handled Liu Yu better and shown the Wuhuan kindness. He could have avoided being a warlord if he so wished. Zan's killing family had nothing to do with him gaining power, it was an act he committed when he had already lost everything due to his tyranny and incompetence

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« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2010, 02:25:57 am »

after some of us favorite evil more then good warlords. like me

my source is wekepedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gongsun_Zan

gongsun zan



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dong_Zhuo

dong zhou
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« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2010, 02:29:42 am »

Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source. More so on Zan than Zhuo. It is filled with information from the novel, which is also not a historical source.
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« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2010, 02:35:12 am »

but its the only one out there!

also my main source is from books
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« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2010, 03:18:14 am »

but its the only one out there!

also my main source is from books
No It's not! Have you ever even tried to look at the sources page!

http://www.koei.com/community/index.php?topic=10856.0
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« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2010, 03:35:19 am »

ok i never seen this.
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« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2010, 05:42:57 am »

To help out

ZZTJ from the coup vs Liang Ji to Emperor Ling's death which has some Zan and Dong stuff.

ZZTJ from Ling's Death to Guan Du which covers Dong and Gongsun Zan's time.

An article on Gongsun Zan vs Liu Yu

Lu Bu's SGZ

Dong's SGZ
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« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2010, 06:08:50 am »

thanks my dear friend
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« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2010, 06:52:42 am »

well i think this discussion has brought to an end LOL i sound like and admnastratior deleting the thread

no am not an admnastritor but realy this discussion has been brought to an end
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« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2010, 07:24:50 am »

well i think this discussion has brought to an end LOL i sound like and admnastratior deleting the thread

no am not an admnastritor but realy this discussion has been brought to an end
There will always be people who need clarification, much like yourself.
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My story, Fallen Kingdoms read it, you'll like it Wink

History is... amazing, but it is also tragic. It is a story of never ending heroism, deceitfulness, wonder, pain, and tragedy. It is an unfinished epic, an unsolved mystery. There is so much we do not know, and there is so much we have yet to learn.
i am the bestest friend
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« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2010, 08:20:49 pm »

i dont get you srsly could explain it alittle bit more?
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