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[looknohands]

The fact that Yuan Shu actively drove Sun Ce away from his side would certainly play a big role in his demise.

[Ace]

Well, in my opinion, Yuan Shu already had bad relations with nearby forces. By declaring himself emperor, he gave them even more reason to attack him. Treating Sun Ce badly just assured his defeat. He was surrounded, outnumbered and outmatched. He didn't have enough land, and troops to hold off a joint attack against Sun Ce and Cao Cao. He either though he could win, or didn't see the big picture. There was no way he could win.

[He Xing]

I believe he became far to ambitious for his own good (and far to arrogant).

[Rivus]

Well, I think it's safe to say we can move on past Yuan Shu. I think we should talk about the guys in around Wu that were defeated by Sun Ce. What was their mistake?  Yan Baihu and what not.

And how many troops did Sun Ce actually have?

[King of Ba Shu]

I kind of dropped hosting this topic because I don't know my way from 200 ACE on.
If anyone else wants to pick up where I left off be my guest.

I believe Sun Ce only started with 3,000 troops that Yuan Shu had loaned him or given him or whatever it was in actuality.

Who were the prominent men that Sun Ce defeated?

Liu Yao, Wang Lang, and Yan Baihu are the only ones I am familiar with.

[Rivus]

I kind of dropped hosting this topic because I don't know my way from 200 ACE on.
If anyone else wants to pick up where I left off be my guest.

I believe Sun Ce only started with 3,000 troops that Yuan Shu had loaned him or given him or whatever it was in actuality.

Who were the prominent men that Sun Ce defeated?

Liu Yao, Wang Lang, and Yan Baihu are the only ones I am familiar with.

That seems like a fictitious number to me, and didn't those three already have a base of their own? You would imagine that they would have easily outnumbered him.

[Ma Su]

Don't forget Sun Ce added troops and then got the combined troops of his uncles

There were things the southern warlords could have done, better used of Taischi Ci and a few others, perhaps stronger coordination and energy once river defences were breached. Mostly though, Sun Ce simply outclassed them and once that river defence was breached, Sun Ce was able to split them and mop them up.

[scholar]

Well the towns and people defecting back to Yuan Shu certainly helped quite a bit. There was no real alliance between the southern lords except that they were all originally in Yuan Shu's sphere, when Liu Yao rebelled Wang Lang went along with it. Yan Baihu I doubt was ever under Yuan Shu's control either. Sun Ce's job was to bring the lands back to Yuan Shu, after the initial struggles were over with it became a down hill battle.

Taishi Ci was a new comer from far up north with very little combat experience, he may have been talented but how talented was completely unknown at the time. It would have been foolish to simply grant Taishi Ci, an untested man in Liu Yao's service (who I might add only recently gained independence), any form of real command. Meanwhile the generals that went to face Sun Ce were the ones who beat back his uncle and won him the province. They were average generals not cannon fodder to make Taishi Ci the only competent man in Liu Yao's service. Sun Ce... get's too much credit and Liu Yao get's blamed too often for not following a new comers advice over his most trusted men.

[Ma Su]

Yet he would have done if not for fear of mockery. I was also thinking of the likes of Hua Xin and, I think, Liu Ye who weren't used properly

[He Xing]

Pretty much as Scholar said yuan Shu had at one time been kind of in charge of the south but lost control to rebels (Liu Yao i presume) and if Wang Lang did not rebel I think he was cut off from Yuan Shu and destroyed. Yan never had a chance in my opinion. Maybe if your skilled in ROTK he might have chance but in actual history no. The guy sent his brother to discuss the division of Wu Yue into east and west. That though did not go to well for Yan Yu.

[JiangShaoWei]

I think i read somewhere that after declaring himself emperor Yuan Shu became over indulgent or something like that and many of his officers deserted him. also the fact that he was fighting everyone it is really hard to fight several different enemies it is easier to have one target to focus on.  He also alienated his brother Yuan Shao because Yuan Shao Might have been his only trust worthy support Sun Ce Had ambitions.  There is a saying in the book "Wives and children are like cloth and can always be mended but brothers are like arms and legs" 

[Humble Hero]

A lot of what we remember of Yuan Shu is slander or distorted. I think his over indulgence is one of those distortions. Also it's important to remember that Shao and Shu weren't on the best of terms in the first place. Something about the succession of the Yuan clan I believe... Anyway.

I also wouldnt say that Ce's ambitions would have been all that clear to Shu. After all, Jian had quite dutifully served Yuan Shu to the death. What reason would he have to believe Ce would be any different?

[scholar]

Yuan Shu wished that he had Sun Ce as a son and trusted him with general autonomy and the ability to have his own subordinate officers. That's something that almost is never done in Chinese history. Examples would be few and far between with Sun Jian being one of the few.

[JiangShaoWei]

i Got this from Wikipedia so it might not be reliable "Though Yuan Shu knew Sun Ce intended to leave, he believed the latter would not be able to defeat Liu Yao."  But i believe Yuan Shu had some idea that Sun Ce would leave him. Though Sun Jian might have been loyal till death Sun Ce is not his father he is a different person.

[scholar]

i Got this from Wikipedia so it might not be reliable "Though Yuan Shu knew Sun Ce intended to leave, he believed the latter would not be able to defeat Liu Yao."  But i believe Yuan Shu had some idea that Sun Ce would leave him. Though Sun Jian might have been loyal till death Sun Ce is not his father he is a different person.

Never trust Wikipedia when it comes to highly romanticized things where the difference between fact and fiction is a very thin line.