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[Nick]

Liu Bei spent most of his time running around fighting.  He didn't gain a real foothold  until late in his career, and he died shortly after that.  As such, his political, economic, environmental, or social contributions are slim to none, because he spent so much time fighting.

Now, that's not to say that he was worse than everyone else.  Most people, even with a foot hold, failed to improve much in their sphere of influence in those regards due to the amount of fighting going on.  Cao Cao and Shi Xie are the two biggest exceptions.

As far as militarily, Liu Bei's record is fairly lackluster.  He lost a large amount of battles, and quite of few of his victories did come from his officers (Zhang Fei at Baxi, for example).  As you said though, his greatest military assest was being able to continuously bounce back and convince people to aid him.  His charisma and determination allowed him to go from being a peasant to an emperor.  He lied, stole, cheated, and killed his way to the top, all the while wearing a smile and convincing people that he was more than your average warlord.

As far as your question about measuring up to the other major leaders, everyone's list will look different.  My personal list goes something like:
Cao Cao, Sun Quan, Liu Bei, Yuan Shao, Sun Ce, Lu Bu, etc.  I don't think you'll find many people rating Sun Jian too highly, only because he was an officer under Yuan Shu for the most part.

[GuanXing-Shu]

Thank you Nick!

You are the first person I have seen to rank Sun Quan higher than Liu Bei, due to many people pointing out his military incompetence (although, I think he is noted for being decent defensively), mind if I ask you why you rank Sun Quan so high?

[Nick]

Thank you Nick!

You are the first person I have seen to rank Sun Quan higher than Liu Bei, due to many people pointing out his military incompetence (although, I think he is noted for being decent defensively), mind if I ask you why you rank Sun Quan so high?

His lack of military accomplishments, and also a Yuan Shao-like senile breakdown at the end of his life are probably the two biggest reasons people don't rate Sun Quan that highly, but he made large strides in trade, exploration, and other domestic endeavors that go unnoticed.  I don't view him as being militarily incompetent either.  He was no Cao Cao, but the majority of the battles he was involved in saw him on the winning side.  I think that he felt others were more suited for the job, and gave them command.  Each of those commanders excelled in their posts, so I believe that he chose wisely and was a great judge of character, another trait that people don't associate with him very often.

If Sun Quan took an army against Liu Bei, I think Bei has the advantage, and i'm sure that puts him above Quan in a lot of people's eyes.  I think that as a ruler, however, Quan did a much better job.

[GuanXing-Shu]

Thank you very much Nick!

[Ma Su]

Liu Bei's strengths were his immense charisma, his bounce-backability and his ability to manipulate events later on. Warlords didn't trust him but he still got jobs and alliances, he was able to inherit lands or brilliantly spin PR. As a commander, when he did have a settled base and went on a run (Chi Bi to Yi Ling), he seems to be the slow and steady type. He often won but only after a long stalemate.

Inferior to Cao Cao, superior to many but not sure how he rates in comparison to the Sun brothers. Difficult one.

[scholar]

In military affairs Liu Bei does not compare to Sun Ce, no matter how over hyped Sun Ce's military prowess is. In administration affairs Liu Bei does not compare to Sun Quan. Liu Bei, however, was arguably better well rounded than those two and had extraordinary resilience that those two probably lacked.

The only warlord we even see remotely similar to Liu Bei in Bounceback capabilities was Yuan Shu. He lost a battle 3-1 against Cao Cao, arguably the greatest warlord of the age and one of the greater generals, and fled hundreds of miles only to wage a battle with a beaten and fatigued army to gain a single city and then became the largest warlord of the age (even daring to become Emperor) until a civil war and a military failure left him bereft of allies and truly capable officials. He died broken broken man.

I rate Yuan Shu very highly as well.

[Nick]

In military affairs Liu Bei does not compare to Sun Ce, no matter how over hyped Sun Ce's military prowess is. In administration affairs Liu Bei does not compare to Sun Quan. Liu Bei, however, was arguably better well rounded than those two and had extraordinary resilience that those two probably lacked.

The only warlord we even see remotely similar to Liu Bei in Bounceback capabilities was Yuan Shu. He lost a battle 3-1 against Cao Cao, arguably the greatest warlord of the age and one of the greater generals, and fled hundreds of miles only to wage a battle with a beaten and fatigued army to gain a single city and then became the largest warlord of the age (even daring to become Emperor) until a civil war and a military failure left him bereft of allies and truly capable officials. He died broken broken man.

I rate Yuan Shu very highly as well.

Yuan Shu's biggest problem came from his lack of common sense and empathy.  He didn't seem to be able to understand how others would react.  See Sun Ce, Cao Cao, Lu Bu, etc.  Very good points Scholar.

[GuanXing-Shu]

Curious, who was the last Han Emperor to hold real power and was an effective leader?

[Ma Su]

Ling was the last to hold real power. So did Huan, after couping Liang Ji, but neither would count as an effective one.

[scholar]

Curious, who was the last Han Emperor to hold real power and was an effective leader?

You need to go back pretty far. Emperor He who ruled from 88 - 105 A.D. held real power and was a fairly effective leader. His father, the third Emperor in the Eastern Han Dynasty was more effective, however. You'll find a pretty common pattern after He to Xie and the fall of the Han was in no way limited to Huan and Ling as it was in decline for decades prior.

[GuanXing-Shu]

Cao Rui, who is his father exactly? I've always thought it was Cao Pi, but the possibility that it was Yuan Xi has been brought up a few times.

[Ma Su]

Cao Pi.

The Yuan Xi thing is an old rumour that I suspect has a lot to do with people liking the tragic Zhen Ji and hating Cao Pi. So you get things like Cao ZhixZhen Ji or questions of paternity. As far as I'm aware, the dates don't lend support to the theroy, there was no insinuations about Rui's legitimacy at the time and Wei would have been extremely careful about the marriage of their leaders eldest son.

[Nick]

There is a very, very slight chance that the Yuan Xi rumor is true.  I have seen a few respected scholars support it.  However, I am inclined to agree with Ma Su and say that it is most likely not possible.

[sunjian]

Where would you guys rate Sun Jian as a military commander?

Would you rate him equal to Zhang He or below?

(With the information we know from his early life till his death.)

[GuanXing-Shu]

Thanks Ma Su and Nick, I just always found it strange that Yuan Xi and Zhen Ji never had kids.

And with Sun Jian....

I would he was a pretty skilled, rating to be one of the best offensive generals of the time, but I would rate Zhang He a bit higher.

Why? Zhang He had to generally go against greater foes, I.E. Shu and Wu. He proved to be resourceful, and was one of the main reasons why Zhuge Liang's campaigns failed, and usually was pretty insightful.

The only person I can remember that flat out defeated Zhang He was Zhang Fei, one of, if not the best Shu general.

So, Zhang He > Sun Jian IMO.